Frey/ Lehman

[YvonneR]

Hi Richard and John

I do not understand any of that John, apart from the New York bit       

I am still convinced that George and Adolf are one and the same. Obviously before I posted, I searched for an Adolf Frey (under all sorts of spellings) living in England and didn't come up with anything that matched.

George and Maria's ages fit well with the Adolf in the passenger list as well as fitting with the England 1891 and 1901 census's.

I also searched the England BMD's and found most of the Frey family in Lancashire. I did wonder if Reginald and Magdalena, may have been Grandchildren and checked for a marriage of George junior, without luck unfortunately.

You will hopefully have noticed that the Magdalena on the passenger list is shown on the birth records as "Magdalen Gladys Frey" so obviously once in the US, used her middle name. Possibly for the same reason as you have both stated 

Will now be giving it some more thought, to see what else could be found to prove or disprove the theory.

Will hopefully be back soon

Agnes

PS: I do not have German blood relatives that I know of but my Irish/American family who lived in the "Hell's Kitchen" area of New York, lived in close proximity and my Grandmother's second husband was a Waltenberg (second generation German) and my Uncle was born of the union and my Aunt married a third generation German/American. So this research is very close to my heart at the moment and very much a learning experience.

PPS: I well remember as a child, my father going to the food hall at Lewis's once a month and bringing home, German sausage and sauerkraut and rollmops       
mmmmmmm' this is taking me back 

[YvonneR]

Hi Richard

Look at the passenger list again for Adolf! It names nearest relative as Johann Frey, Steinbach WRTTBG. Would you know if that is Württemberg?

I do not know anything of Germany's geography but looks likely to me

Agnes

[Richard54]

Agnes,
      Johann first pops up in the 1891 census with George and Marie in Manchester   RG 12  / 3166/  page 8   Older brother of George and a butcher as well. I think he returns to Germany thus George quoting him on the immigrant form. Both born Steinback, Wurtenburg  , Germany.
 Wurtenburg, with various spellings is a region of Southern Germany similar to the English county system.
 I think I have George's sister, Mrs Lehmann  is none other than Catherine Lehmann, born Germany, husband Charles A, Born Switzerland living at 357 Madison in 1920 . However trying to track back is not proving easy despite the census saying they arrived in 1898, and giving ages of 48 and 46 in 1920.
No sign of naturalisation either as reported in 1902.
Boarder Ernst Trump turns out to come from Mergentheim, and what a surprise states Marie Frey as a cousin on the immigrant form Marie is also from Mergentheim.
I'm intrigued by a social security death reported in the New York region of a Hilda M Shaw in 1988 stating she was born in 1895 . Hmmmm  I wonder 
There is one Frey marriage registered in Chorlton in 1910 that of George Frederick, possibly this is the son born in 1885 Salford. Poss wife Rose Hunt as the two other names show up as linked on GenesReunited by the same person.

                         Richard

[YvonneR]

Hi Richard

Looks like it could well be your Hilda as I have found a George Shaw in the SSDI, who died in June 1981, whose last residence was Suffolk County also. His birth date is shown as 4th May 1885 which is the same as the George Shaw found in the WWI draft index cards:

WWI Draft Registration

George Frederick Shaw, 149 Engert Ave, Brooklyn, NY, age 33 born May 4th 1885, England
Occupation, Motorman, B.R.T. Crosstown Depot, Greenpoint
Nearest relative, John Shaw 152 Mecker? Ave, Brooklyn, NY
Medium height, medium weight, brown eyes and brown hair

Date of registration, September 12 1918


I do believe that we are getting there 

Yes, I did see the George Frey marriage of 1910 and had hoped that the births of Reginald and Magdalena would have been solved with an earlier marriage. Never the less, George and Maria were certainly not too old to have had these children in their forties 

I see that you have located the Lehmann's! Good work  I presume that you have decided to take up the world subscription....you won't regret it, I know that it is quite expensive but I certainly wouldn't be without it 

I will have a look for them and see if I can help with locating any more info

Best wishes

Agnes

[YvonneR]

Ok, found them in 1910 Richard

1910 census, 499 Gates Avenue, Brooklyn Ward 23, Kings, New York

Head, Charles Lehmann, age 40,
Wife, Kate, age 37
Daughter, Theodora, age 15
Daughter, Lillian, age 7

Immigration year is shown as 1890 for Catherine (Kate) and 1888 for Charles. Both Theodora and Lillian are shown as being born in New York

Roll - T624_972
Enumeration District - 584

Still looking for 1900

Agnes

[YvonneR]

Richard

Found them in 1900 living at 1364, West Kalb Avenue, Brooklyn Ward 27, Kings, New York

Chas Lehman, age 35 
Katie, age 27 
Theodora, age 5 

[YvonneR]

I found Theodora's marriage

Bride
Theodora Lehman, December 2nd  1916, certificate number 3880, Bronx   
Groom
Carl Mampel, December 2nd  1916, certificate number 3880, Bronx 


Carl and Theodora in the 1920 census are living at 8507 106th Street, Queens Assembly District 5, Queens, New York.


Agnes

[Richard54]

Agnes,
      I was pretty certain about Reginald and Gladys. I'm think that between Hilda 1895 and Reginald 1903 there were two other children Frank William 1898-1899 and Frank Cyril 1901- 1903. Two other children  Alice 1887and Catherine 1889 also died. Infant mortality in those days was horrific, more so in industrial Manchester. I have some wonderful 1910 insurance policies taken out against infant death from another part of the familly. Interesting that in another branch of family out in New Zealand at the same time , loads of children but almost all living to a ripe old age in a cleaner rural setting.
  As to the other stuff you have uncovered I'm staggered
  I was just starting to play with Charles/ Chas and various options of Catherine/ Katherine but I hadn't got as far as Kate   Giving misleading entry dates on the 1920 census wasn't helpful either.
 Yes I did take the plunge with the Ancestry I just couldn't sit here unable to access the records. Unfortunately no luck wiith the German emigration records from Wuttenburg  that  Ancestry have online yet

          Regards    Richard

[Richard54]

Agnes,
      I was pretty certain about Reginald and Gladys. I'm think that between Hilda 1895 and Reginald 1903 there were two other children Frank William 1898-1899 and Frank Cyril 1901- 1903. Two other children  Alice 1887and Catherine 1889 also died. Infant mortality in those days was horrific, more so in industrial Manchester. I have some wonderful 1910 insurance policies taken out against infant death from another part of the familly. Interesting that in another branch of family out in New Zealand at the same time , loads of children but almost all living to a ripe old age in a cleaner rural setting.
  As to the other stuff you have uncovered I'm staggered
  I was just starting to play with Charles/ Chas and various options of Catherine/ Katherine but I hadn't got as far as Kate   Giving misleading entry dates on the 1920 census wasn't helpful either.  Just looking at the 1900 record I wish we had this much info on the English census, gives months of birth and that Kate has had two children, one living.
 Yes I did take the plunge with the Ancestry I just couldn't sit here unable to access the records. Unfortunately no luck wiith the German emigration records from Wuttenburg  that  Ancestry have online yet

          Regards    Richard