Contoroversy about ancestors

[Tuganneth]

Hi
Just when I thought my ancestry was settled...

I had recently received an email from a lady concerning people by the name of Saunders in East Peckham
I had mentioned to her in reply about among others my 2 x  Gt  Gd father Thomas Saunders born East Peckham c 1825 a son of
 Richard and Fanny Saunders nee Robertson
who married November 25th 1816 S Margaret's Rochester

Her response was  the info she had gave the maiden name of Fanny as Hammon(d)
the marriage - to a Richard Saunders - took place East Peckham August 25th 1817

Now the charts given to me by my cousin - at least 5 years apart show the maiden name as Robertson
Moreover my cousin lives in Maidstone thus placing her quite close to the 'action'
 
This lady on the other hand was married to a Saunders and as well does not often visit Kent Archives in person.

As an aside what would the likelihood  of there being other guys called Richard Saunders in the early 19th century.?
What about girls called Sarah Saunders -
including a sibling of Thomas Saunders?

Enough digression
What is the likelihood of this lady confusing two or more guys called Richard Saunders.

NB I have used the form Saunders
Use of the form Sanders has been understood as well.

Thanks in advance

[Valda]

According to the Office of National Statistics database the surname Saunders ranks as the 111 most popular surname in the country with 51,138 sharing the surname. Sanders is rarer - only the 313 most popular name with 22,558 people with that surname. In comparison my own surname which is not rare merely unusual is 3,728 in popularity as far as a surname goes with under 2,000 people sharing the surname. It also like many surnames tends to be locative, so though there would always be far less of them than Saunders, but for me the chances of more than one Richard in anyone area marrying a woman of the same first name (and the same first names have the same time zones of popularity) is actually pretty high even for a much rarer surname.

http://www.taliesin-arlein.net/names/search.php

So the question actually is not about who lives closest to Maidstone - that is actually irrelevant. The question is whose research is based on enough evidence and therefore enough proof.

What evidence do you have that the Richard who married Fanny Robertson in Rochester in 1816 was the father of Thomas born in East Peckham circa 1825 (in fact do you have his baptism to say who his parents were - circa sounds a bit vague). Is the choice just based on a marriage found on the very incomplete index the IGI while other marriages may not be on the IGI?

The first baptism in East Peckham on the IGI for Richard and Fanny is of
Mary Sanders 
Christening:  26 OCT 1817   East Peckham, Kent
Father:  Richard Sanders 
Mother:  Fanny 

Nothing for Thomas though.

Does Thomas state his father was named Richard on his marriage?
Do you have any proof his mother was actually called Fanny?

Does the East Peckham 1817 marriage exist? Have you checked it at source in the register?

Have you checked the Rochester couple to see whether they continued on in the Rochester area and therefore you are able to eliminate them?

You need to weigh up how much of Thomas' parentage is based on assumption and how much is based on evidence, that is really your over arching question.

Regards

Valda

[Tuganneth]

Thanks Valda for your reply

Concerning Mary Sanders daughter of
Richard and Fanny Sanders - baptised October  26  1817   East Peckham,

My cousin does not mention her in the charts she has drawn up over the years
Whether this means Mary was born to a different couple from my putative ancestors or else the event had slipped under the radar I have yet to discern

The point is taken concerning the IGI records However my cousin has not mentioned IGI among her sources. Indeed much of her work has been carried out 'offline'
 The marriage event alleged to have taken place in East Peckham has not to date shown up on the familysearch site.

The reference to 'circa' may have arisen from  interpreting census reports

Generally speaking some discreet questioning may not go astray either way
Thank you

[trish251]

Hi There

Would have to agree with Valda in that some actual records are needed to determine who was the Fanny who married your Richard.

Given your comment re no knowledge of Mary, and the abt. listed for the birth of Thomas, it does appear likely that the information you originally have comes from census records. In 1841, there is no Mary living with the family in East Peckham. She had presumably married, left home to work (in service perhaps)  or had died at a young age. There is a marriage for a Mary Saunders Distr Malling in Dec Qtr 1837.

In 1851 the birthplace of Richard and Fanny are given. Richard comes from Horsmonden and there is an IGI extracted record for his birth. This is about 6 miles from East Peckham which is given in 1851 as the place of birth for Fanny. They  are 17 and 13 miles from Rochester, close enough for a wedding, but why would they go there? With no other information, I would be inclined to think they married in Peckham - but this is NOT proof of same. The fact that the only Kent marriage on the IGI is the one in Rochester, is also NOT proof that this one  is your family.

Of interest in the 1851 census, the couple have a child listed as daughter, Sarah who is 5 years old. Her mother would have been about 48/49 when she was born, if Fanny is the mother (rather than the grandmother). This seems to be the only child born after civil registration, so if parish records cannot be found, giving the maiden name of the mother of the other children, this may be a possibility to find Fanny's maiden name - IF the child is registered as her daughter.

This is the only registration with the correct district (on FreeBDM - perhaps the full index should be checked)

Sarah Jane Saunders Dec  Qtr 1846 (rather late for 5 in census??) District  Malling 5 388  -  name indicates she may belong to daughter Jane.

Trish

[Valda]

This is the full list of baptisms on the IGI (coverage on the NBI is 1558-1812)

Mary Sanders   
Christening:  26 OCT 1817   East Peckham, Kent
Father:  Richard Sanders 
Mother:  Fanny

Frances Saunders   
Christening:  23 DEC 1821   East Peckham, Kent
Father:  Richard Saunders   
Mother:  Fanny 

Anne Saunders   
Christening:  29 JUL 1827   East Peckham, Kent
Father:  Richard Saunders  Family
Mother:  Fanny 

Jane Saunders 
Christening:  04 APR 1830   East Peckham, Kent
Father:  Richard Saunders   
Mother:  Fanny 

Caroline Saunders   
Christening:  15 MAR 1835   East Peckham, Kent
Father:  Richard Saunders 
Mother:  Fanny 

Elizabeth Tickner Saunders 
Christening:  08 JAN 1837   East Peckham, Kent
Father:  Richard Saunders 
Mother:  Fanny 

Sarah Ann Saunders 
Birth:     Snoll Hatch
Christening:  08 JUN 1845   East Peckham, Kent
Father:  Richard Saunders 
Mother:  Fanny 

The 1841 census with the children with no baptisms on the IGI in italics (Have you checked the actual parish registers for the missing baptisms)?

1841 census HO107 461/10 folio 13 page 18
Snoll Hatch East Peckham  Kent 
Richard Sanders 45 Kent  Ag lab
Fanny Sanders 45  Kent
Richard Sanders 20  Kent Ag lab
Fanny Sanders 20 Kent
William Sanders 15  Kent
Thomas Sanders 15  Kent  
Ann Sanders 14 Kent
Jane Sanders 11  Kent
Elizabeth Sanders 5  Kent 
Emma Sanders 3  Kent 

Given the spelling of the surname on the 1841 census and the IGI baptism this birth registration might be the better bet

Births Jun 1845
Sanders  Sarah Ann    Malling  5 360

FreeBMD isn't sure of the page number a 3 or a 5 but the original looks like a 3 to me - but you need to check it.

http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx

Regards

Valda

[Tuganneth]

Hi
Thanks once again for responses thus far

Concerning Mary Sa(u)nders
IF she was born to OUR Richard and Fanny Sa(u)nders.
She may have been first one born after marriage event (Rochester)
OR may have been exnuptial conception in connexion with East Peckham event

My cousin never mentioned Emma- listed in 1841 census report
I might take this up with her

Trish251 has drawn attention to a scenario where given the age of Fanny Sa(u)nders -48/49 at time of Sarah' s birth - the former may well be grandmother rather than mother

As to Rochester versus East Peckham marriage events I leave open pro tem

Certainly I would esp appreciate info on Thomas Sa(un)ders concerning his baptism

An aside I have been given to understand labourers esp ag labs were somewhat mobile They may well turn up at 'Fairs' where prospective employers might set up their hiring stands
Thus some guys might turn up in say the Medways
As well the River Medway must not be understated as a transport link
Indeed a census report shows a guy by the name  Saunders (not known to be a direct relation) as a bargeman

I 'm now asking myself as to whether I for one might have to reinvent the wheel concerning the Saunders' line

Thanks

[Valda]

Whether Fanny was to old to be the mother of Sarah Ann or not the baptism indicates the vicar of East Peckham thought she was her mother and I doubt he would have allowed the child to be baptised and entered into the church parish register (a legal document) knowingly giving her grandparents as her parents, if he knew they were not.
Since Richard and Fanny are given on Sarah baptism as her parents it would seem very unlikely they are not her parents on her birth certificate (if it is the right birth registration).

I would be less secure that this was Emma's birth registration given that her age was recorded as 3 on the 1841 census

Births Mar 1839
Sanders  Emma    Malling  5 323

By tradition marriages are ususally conducted in the bride's parish (or her parish of residency at the time - though some servant girls did return home for their marriages - sometimes travelling extensive distances if they were working in London for instance). The 1851 census gives Fanny's birthplace as East Peckham.

Regards

Valda

[Eyesee]

I am not related but have been trolling through the St Margarets, Rochester marriages myself recently on CityArk and went back them just now. The entry for the marriage of Richard SAUNDERS and Fanny ROBERTSON has them both of that parish, and married after banns. The witnesses were Sarah BONNER and James SMITH. They were not related I suspect as they were the same witnesses at the previous marriage in the register, on the same day, between James HARVEY bachelor, and Elizabeth SWANN widow.

Not sure if that is of any help or not. I guess marrying by banns meant they would have been in the area for at least the three previous weeks. No banns on CityArk for St Margarets so cannot see when they were published.

[Tuganneth]

Hi
Thanks to Eyesee concerning the Rochester event

I 've seen the copy of the Register entry myself
Apart from James Smith and the minister officiating they were none too lettered!

Digressing slightly I understand it would have been plausible for them  to have found work beforehand in the Medways.Thus sojourning at least long enough to be accounted 'of this parish' As well the premise I work from is that of mobility of esp single guys together with the River Medway playing a big role

I haven't seen banns on the CityArk site Perhaps I missed something!

I might mention my cousin's work on the family tree.
Though this  like the mobility of workers might be conveniently overlooked
She began working on the tree well before PC's started to be commonplace domestic appliances
Thus much of the data she obtained was 'offline'
I have understood her to be meticulous
Even acknowledging situations where lineage is to be queried
Thus I have seen no cause to question accuracy of her charts
An earlier chart she had shown me had given at least years of Baptism
Certainly if familysearch-IGI was really used by her such was not apparent to me.
I might ask her concerning her data sources if only to confirm accuracy.