Germany: Records of German Musicians

[myk]

Hi thanks for the responses.

Marriage details.

9/7/1849 liverpool Parish Church Southport, Lancaster
groom - Philip Winsburgh, age full, batchelor, musician.
father - Philip Winsburgh, musician.
bride - Mary Ann Smith, age full, spinster
Father - George Smith, Paper maker.
Witnesses - (looks like) Margaret Moran and James

Mike

[JustinL]

Mike,

What makes you think they were Jewish? I see no evidence in that marriage record, in fact quite the opposite. Are you aware of a conversion in the past?

A Jewish baby was given the name of recently deceased relative as a sign of veneration. The only way that a boy could have the same name as his father was if the father died during the mother's pregnancy.

I apologise, none of this helps you track down their birthplace.

Justin

[myk]

Found them on this search:

Source:   http://british-jewry.org.uk

http://www.british-jewry.org.uk/New%20Member%20Area/Yorkshire%201881/Bradford/acaster.htm

Can trace them back to Whitechapel in London in 1851:

6 Christopher Close   Whitechapel, Middlesex Winsburg(h) Phillip Lodger Married 23 Skin Dresser Germany
6 Christopher Close   Whitechapel, Middlesex Winsburg (Smith) Mary Ann Wife Married 23 - Germany

[JustinL]

Hello Mike,

The first page of that Yorkshire Jewry database bears the vital caveat:

Conrad Plowman ... extracted these names based on their birth place from the 1881 census index.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/042g/

Practising Jews would have married according to the rites of the Jewish religion, a fact that would have been recorded on the marriage cert. Your cert clearly proves that the WINSBURGS were not Jewish.

The friendly people of the British-Jewry forum helped me trace my Jewish ancestry back to Germany. I would email them and ask for a clarification regarding the database.

Have you tried the Anglo-German Family History Society?

Justin

[myk]

Ok a bit daft of me to jump to that conclusion

The street they lived in in 1851 was most likely Christopher Court not Close.

I cannot find any record of a Close of that name in Whitechapel around that time but there was a Court.

This Court is mentioned in the Booths Poverty Online Archive as "inhabited by Jews"
This record was made in 1898 though and is only a very very tenuous link with my ancestors.

But I dont have much else to go on as far as finding where Philip Winsburg came from in Germany.

In a later Census -1871- he is named as born in FRANCE E??? and living with his second wife Sarah in Sherburn, Yorkshire.

Very confusing!

I have tried the Anglo-German Family History Society some time ago and dont remember getting anywhere.

thanks for replying

[JustinL]

Hello Mike,

I was wondering about the 1871 census and the reference to France.

As far as I know the French lost the Franco-Prussian War of that year, so there was no transfer of land to the France.

I'm sure you've been down this path, but I would imagine that the family originated in a place called Winsburg or something similar.

There are references on the web to 12th century battle near Winsburg castle and to Bretzfeld and Winsburg in Wuerttemberg.

Have you checked out Weinsburg or Wiensburg?

Justin

[aghadowey]

Some of my relatives lived in the Saar region on the French border and I remember seeing birthplace as 'France' on one of the census returns. My great-grandmother was a baby at the time of the Franco-Prussian war and her father was a baker. Some days he went one direction from home to deliver bread to the German troops and other days they were in the opposite direction.

[JustinL]

Very interesting you should say that.

I came across an old rootweb message (I think) mentioning Winsburg, Nünschweiler and Hochweiler near Saarbrücken. I couldn't find that Winsburg, but maybe the placename changed.

[aghadowey]

Have extremely detailed map of Saarbrucken area purchased in Germany with an index- will check for Winsburg and see if I can find it.