McDougall/Montgomrie of Johnstone

[smcd]

Hello Ann

Many thanks for the email and details re the abbey that you have sent so promptly--much appreciated as we live in Australia and are far removed from the area and having first-hand information.  I would think that James McDougall, and possibly his wife would have been buried eventually with him, would be in an older graveyard somewhere.  Abbey, Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland seems to continually come up in my research as the place where James and Elixabeth were married on 13 March 1816 and where they had each of their children baptised.  The last child, James, I have as being born on 8 June 1838, so it would seem that James has died when this little boy was still quite young, as the dates we have are somewhere around 1841/1843???  My research has his place of death as Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland, and that James had been a cotton spinner...

It has been suggested to me by descendants that Alexander has a sister who also migrated to Australia, but we have no idea which sister and when she came (before or after Alexander and his wife and child), or whether or not she came out here married or single.  Some women did migrate unmarried with other family members.

"Our" McDougall's married in Scotland in 1851 and migrated in 1855, so the Father, James would likely (by the dates we have) already be dead by the time of this marriage, but what of the Mother (Elizabeth) and what of all the other brothers and sisters?  Also I need to make sure just who were the brothers and sisters, as I have a few that are different from another posting I have read on this site.

Many thanks to anyone who can help with this and again thanks to Ann for your reply.

Kind regards
smcd (Shirley)

[runningbear]

hi pal,

i think this is yer family...

1851 census- dimity street, johnstone

elizabeth...age 55...born c1796
susan...age 21...mill worker
malcolm...age iron moulder
james...age 13...mill worker

all born johnstone

Joe

[Ann Baker]

Shirley Hi

O have checked the graveyards from the Memoiral Inscription books I have and can;t find them. This doesn;t mean they were not buried there what it means is they don;t have headstones which wasn;t unusual for the time - Most folks couldn;t afford one.

The only way to get death records such as they are pre 1855 is to contact the National Archivs Scotland and see of they have the mortcloth records for the area in question. Some, albeit a few, still survive. Pre 1855 is only recird of death available.

Nas website is     http://www.nas.gov.uk/

I know anything they have for Renfrewshire is there because I have asked them for things my folks being from Paisley.

To get further back with Alexander you are going to need the parish records. If he was Church of Scotland then these are on Scotland's People http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ . If not then you need to contact National Archives Scotland at address above.

Oh and I neglected to Mention the Abbey as is known is still standing in Paisley and it does have a graveyard tho all the stones are laid flat but fraid your folks not got stone there. But for info this is a pic of the abbey and a bit about it http://www.paisleyabbey.org.uk/gettingthere.htm and http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/paisley/abbey/index.html

Cheers

Ann

[runningbear]

hi pal,

seems that susan married john duncan around 1852, will check oot the igi's

1861 census- 61 high street, johnstone

john duncan...age 34...tailor
susan duncan...age 35
elizabeth duncan...age 8
elizabeth mcdougall...age 64...mother-in-law

Joe

[runningbear]

hi pal,

1841 census- graham street, johnstone

bell (nickname)...age 45...widow
robert...age 20...printer foundry
janet...age 18...mill worker
susan...age 16...mill worker
malcolm...age 7
james...age 2
alexander...age 44...mill worker
robert montgomery....age 21


Joe

[runningbear]

hi pal

see a marriage for susan, 30/11/1851.

Joe

[smcd]

Hello Joe and Hello Ann

I am overwhelmed by the kindness of both of you and the information you have been sending me.  Thank you both so very much.  Every little piece of information that is forthcoming helps to unravel the mysteries that our ancestors left behind.  We live here in Australia, about an hour's drive north of Brisbane, and to be able to have people like yourselves from so far away assist with information so quickly by message, through this site to our computer is just wonderful.  Hope you do not mind this message being sent to the two of you in one, but I have just received your messages and must rush out to a funeral so wanted to respond quickly before I leave.

I will look through all that you have sent in fine detail later in the day.  Again a very sincere thank you for your kind efforts and for taking the time to reply so quickly.

Kindest regards
smcd (Shirley)

[smcd]

Hello again Joe

I am just trying to wade my way through all the wonderful information that has been sent my way re the McDougall family.  I have a query of you... 

Could you please go back to wherever yu found the information re the 1841 census where you have the father, James, already desceased and Elizabeth (Bell) living at Graham Street, Johnstone.  In that detail which you sent to me, you have Alexander listed as being 44 and a mill worker.  However, my information would have had him as being about 14 at that stage.  Could this be a typing error in transcription? I have Alexander as being born on 30 Apr 1827 in Johnstone Renfrewshire.  That piece of information does not seem to fit...

I did my initial research on this family on the familysearch.org site and that is where I gathered the names:

Catherin MCDOUGALL...b.
Marion MCDOUGALL...b.29 Oct 1816   
Neil MCDOUGALL...b.11 Jan 1819
Robert MCDOUGALL...b.07 Apr 1821
Janet MCDOUGALL...b.02 May 1823
Susan King MCDOUGALL...b.04 Jun 1825
Alexander MCDOUGALL...b.30 Apr 1827...Johnstone, Renfrewshire, Scotland
Mary Stewart MCDOUGALL...b.05 Jul 1829
James MCDOUGAL...b.06 Jun 1838

I have the Death Cert of Alexander and it states the parents as: James McDougall...Cotton Spinner and Elizabeth Montgomery.

Interestingly, the children of Alexander and his wife Agnes (and I have quite a bit on Agnes's family--even finding a long-lost cousin for Doug in Scotland) were:
Isabella... (named after his wife's Mother) & born in Scotland
James... (named after his Father) born in Scotland but died at sea
John... born in Australia and died 2 & a half months later
Alexander... (named after himself)
Robert... (named probably after his brother)
Malcolm... (Doug's Grandfather &  possibly named after a brother we did not know existed in the list we have)
James...(named also after the Father since the other James died)
Agnes...(named after the Mother)

Since it was custom to name the first son after the Father's Father and the second son after the Mother's Father, then we can assume that Elizabeth Montgomery's Father was probably a John?? and that is where that name came from in Alexander and Agnes McDougall's family here in Australia.

However, I am still uneasy re athe names I have and the names that have come to me in the last couple of days.  For instance, it does seems likely that there may well have been a Malcolm born to James and Elizabeth, as I have often wondered how that name turned up in his son Alexander's family and this Malcolm of couse is Doug's Grandfather.

Also could the Christine I have really be a Christian McDougall? and why did this name never seem to come up again in the family??

Does the Marion McDougall I have just not exist in this family?  Certainly I never saw this name occur again either...

What about the Mary Stewart McDougall?  Who is she??

Why did I not have a Malcolm?? (although I did in another search of familysearch.org on another occasion and he was born 1834 which fits with your 7 yrs old in the 1841 census)

Why did I have Susan King McDougall, if her name was simply Susan??

I have too many questions don't I...........  I do apologise for this, but I just would like to make sure I have the right people and have it referenced properly ie where the info comes from.  I guess there could have been deaths in the family as often happened in those days which is another explanation.


SORRY ANOTHER QUERY......

There seems evidence that Susan McDougall married John Duncan around 1852 and she shows up in the 1861 census as 35 which fits with her being born 04 Jun 1825.  However I have a contact now with Althea in NZ who believes she is a descendant of Susan who married Achibald Morren and moved to NZ.

I really must sort out some answers to these queries before entering too much information into my tree.

Joe, I realise this is a lot to lay at your feet and will understand if you just feel it is not somewhere you want to go with your research.  On the other hand, if you too are interested in helping me sort out this problem, I will be so very, very grateful for your kindness.

Very kind regards
smcd (Shirley) from Australia

[runningbear]

hi pal,

wonder if this is yours?

1851 census- 23 rankine street, johnstone

alexander...age 26...cotton spinner
agnes hart...age 23...born kilbarchan
christian...age 5
james...age 6 months


will visit the few graveyards in johnstone to see if i can find yer mcdougall's


Joe