1841 census Potts Cramlington

[jackspratt]

I wonder if anyone is able to locate Robert Potts and his family in the 1841 census for me?

I'm afraid the information I have is scant - only that there was a daughter  Margaret born in 1839 in Cramlington and possibly a younger daughter Mary may have been born in time for the census. She also was born in Cramlington so I presume the family was still there in 1841.

Margaret married in 1859 while living in High Street Gateshead in Co. Durham where her father was presumably living. He is described on the certificate as a pitman.

If the family could also be found there in 1861 I would be grateful for information.

Many thanks

Jackspratt

[Michael Dixon]

Jackspratt,

No good candidates seen on Census 1841 ( which records no relationships). No Robert Potts in Cramlington.

On C1851 (2412-511-57) in Stone Row, Cramlington there is a 11 yr old Margaret Potts, living in as a servant to a Dunn family. No Robert Potts in Cramlington.

Who did Margaret marry in Gateshead in 1859. Do you mean Gateshead itself or Gateshead Registration District.

What name did Margaret and her husband give to their first dtr ?

Michael Dixon

[jackspratt]

Thanks for your interest Michael.

She married John Johnson in Gateshead Parish Church (St.Mark's).

First daughter was Ellen - no precedents in the Johnson family as far as I'm aware.

Robert is proving quite elusive - I'm guessing he moved around a bit more than was usual. A lot of new pits were being opened at that time and it looks as if he was making use if them as far as they were able then.

Thanks again.

Jack 

[Michael Dixon]

Jack,

I asked for name of their first dtr, as, if they were following the "rules" of the English Naming Pattern, which most people did in C19th, they would/should have called first dtr after Margaret's mother.

But looking at the constitution of family( on C1871 4966-32-26) I don't think they were following the pattern ( you can find several sites via Google which explains the pattern.)

I think John Johnson's mother was Martha, and it seems that John/Margaret did not name a dtr Martha (Dtr no2 should have been named Martha).

But for C1851 (2412-521-3) in East Cramlington, there was a 35-yr old widow, ELEN Potts, pauper, born Elswick, with two dtrs, Mary, 9, and Elizabeth, 7, both born Cramlington. Also in the house was an unmarried lodger from Norfolk, Robert Ellis, 35 yrs old ( I think).

Free BMD has the death registration at Tynemouth, of a Robert Potts, in March Qtr of 1847. ( Cramlington lay in the reg. district of Tynemouth).



You said Margaret and John married in 1859 in Gateshead parish church, St Marks. ??

FreeBMD has marr reg of Margaret Potts/John Johnson @ Gateshead Reg District 1858, not 1859. 

And St MARY's was Gateshead "parish". Where was St Mark's??.

Michael Dixon


Have you seen the John/Margaret family on C1861 (3740-38-35) ?

Is that a two year old SON, (Ancestry has transcribed him as Allinder M Johnson) .. I wonder what happened to him. ?

John Johnson was near Seaton Delaval on C1841
(820/19-42-2... his dad also John. Then on C1861 they had moved to High Fell Gateshead (2402-426-29)

[jackspratt]

Thank you Michael for your comprehensive reply.

I knew about the naming system - though I'm not sure they always did.

I have the details of the Johnsons and you are correct in pinpointing them at Seaton Delaval in 1841. Ultimately John Johnson snr moved back to Morpeth - he was born in Mitford- In 1851 they were at Steads farm Mitford and in 1861 at East High House Farm, High Stanners, Morpeth. I think the mother's name Martha has been transcribed incorrectly. She is Mary (Lewins, I believe) in subsequent censuses and this is followed in the naming of daughter after her though, of course, it's a common enough name in those days.

Yes I've seen the 1861 Johnson family. I rather think that the Mary Potts named as married  may not have been. She's the Mary that I think might be Margaret's sister (Mary Potts was a witness at the wedding of John and Margaret) and I think her twins and Allinder (Alexander?) could be illegitimate.  The birth of twins to Margaret was imminent and I think she was there to help out . I looked for Mary and her boys some time ago and seem to remember that they disappeared off the radar. I assumed she'd married.

I have the marriage certificate showing the marriage on Jan 9 1858. Looking more closely it might be St. Mary's not St. Marks. In any event it is shown at the bottom to be the Parish Church.

The Johnsons took some unravelling - I was unfortunate enough to have come through a long line of John Johnsons. But I was fortunate that at least they came from Morpeth where there weren't so many.

I was hoping that the Potts coming from Cramlington, where there are a number of that name, might be easier but so far that hasn't proved to be the case, there being a number of Roberts . However, I shall try to follow up the possible leads you have kindly supplied and see where that leads me.

Many thanks

Jack

[Michael Dixon]

Well it appears I got the wrong Johnson family in Seaton Delaval (then moving on to Gateshead)

What made this family (headed by John/Martha) promising was that on C1851  ( 2402-426-29), they had a 20 yr-old John Johnson, who was a blacksmith, which fitted nicely with Margaret Potts husband John Johnson... who on C1861 was 30 and a blacksmith.

Mary Potts, living in with the Johnsons in Cassop is recorded as UNMARRIED. ( or more accurately the abbreviation for unmarried, )and the 2 yr old "son" is named Johnson, not Potts, and enumerators recorded people in terms of their relationship to the Head of the household.( in this case John Johnson).

What boys did Mary Potts have ?


I hope I am not confusing things, with my big sneck !

Michael Dixon

[Michael Dixon]

Jack,

I have just seen on C1851 (2418-132-10) in Mitford, the family headed by the Mitford-born JOHN JOHNSON and wife Mary.

His 19 yr old son, JOHN, a farm labourer, is recorded as been born in WOODHORN ( near modern-day Ashington)

On Census 1861, ( 3740-38-35) the JOHN JOHNSON who married Margaret Potts, is recorded as a Blacksmith and as been born in SEATON DELAVAL.

And on C1851 ( 2402-426-29) in Low Fell Gateshead, John, the son of John and Martha Johnson is a 20 yr old Blacksmith, born in Northumberland ( the Gateshead enumerator only recorded birth-counties, not birth-places.

So if you believe me, there are two candidates for the JOHN JOHNSON who married Margaret Potts..... in Gateshead in 1858, and was 30yr old and a blacksmith and born Seaton Delaval on C1861 (3740-38-35)..

No.1. The farm labourer, 19 yrs on C1851, born Woodhorn, living in Mitford, Northumberland in 1851, son of John/Mary.

No.2. The blacksmith, 20 yrs on C1851, born Northumberland, son of John/Martha, living in Low Fell Gateshead in 1851.

Over to you,

Michael Dixon, with apologies.

[jackspratt]

Hello Michael

I'm having to rewrite this as I tried to attach a photograph of Gateshead High Street in 1924 (you appear to have an interest in that area). Unfortunately I did it at the end of my first reply and it succeeded in obliterating everything I'd written. If you'd like to see the photo and you can tell me how to send it let me know.

I think your big sneck has thrown a spanner in the works.

I had a comfortable and romantic line back to Holy Island Lewins in the 1600s based on the 1901 census entry which said John was born in Morpeth. Previous entries said Seaton Delaval but that's not so far away and many of the 1841 census details seemed to be OK.

He was my mother's grandfather and she referred to his strong Northumbrian burr, with which you are no doubt familiar, so Morpeth fitted nicely.

The marriage to a Gateshead girl seemed a bit of an anomaly but possible.

However, it seems as if I'm going to have another look at it all on the basis of what you uncovered (you were only supposed to be looking at Potts) and rewrite a substantial part of the family history.

Can you let me have details of the 1851 census Gateshead Johnson family to set me on my way again? Reluctantly I have to concede they're probably the proper family. Do you have the 1861 and '71 details as well, if that's not imposing too much?

My only excuse in this is that there are an awful lot of John Johnsons around in the Northern counties.

Many thanks

Jack

[jackspratt]

PS.
I only know about the children of Mary Potts that are shown in the 1861 census ie Allinder (Alexander) M aged 2 and twin boys James and John aged four months.

My guess was that she was there to help with the birth of Margaret's twins but since her own twins were born in Tursdale Colliery perhaps she lived with them. I might well get the certificates for these boys to find out more. (More expense!)