Cory's from Deal

[Jeff Holzgrefe]

Dear AJ,

A quick question.  Can you please confirm the birth and baptismal dates for Charles Henry Bailey 1 son of Charles Henry & Annie BAILEY, Waterman of 12, Princes Street?  There's a 12 month difference between the birth and baptismal dates you posted above (19/6/1904 (born 21/5/1905)  Charles Henry s/o Charles Henry & Annie BAILEY, Waterman of 12, Princes Street).

Many thanks,

Jeff

[AJ100]

Dear Jeff

Pig's Ear, there. Apologies. Charles Henry BAILEY was baptised at St George's. Deal on 19th June 1904.
His birthdate is shown as 21st May 1904 - I obviously put the wrong year. Promise to do better next time.

Details of Annie PITCHER on way in a minute or two - I'm reseaching three families at once and lose track of who wants what.

Oh Dear

AJ

[AJ100]

Hello again, Jeff,

Here's what I've found  out about Annie PITCHER's family.
St Andrew's, Deal
19/2/1877  John PITCHER 20, Boatman of 3, George Street, son of George PITCHER, Labourer
      married Emma Elizabeth STANTON 20, Domestic Servant of 1, King's Arms Alley, daughter of John STANTON, Boatman.
Their children, baptised at St Andrew's:

11/9/1878  William John       while John was living at 100, Middle Street. Slight hesitation over this as his wife is recorded as Emily.
18/2/1881  John                                                             3, Ivy Place
16/2/1883  Annie                                                          17, Dolphin Street
  5/8/1885  Emma Elizabeth                                          17, Dolphin Street
Baptised at St George's:
18/6/1890  Ada Emily                                                      4. Silver Street
28/8/1892  Dorothy Blanche                                         13, Silver Street
  7/4/1895  Daisy                                                                Silver Street
15/1/1899  Benjamin Walter   born 7/12/1898                   Silver Street

29/6/1903 Morrison MARSH 20, Fish Hawker  of 9, Golf Road, son of George MARSH, Fish Hawker
     married Emma Elizabeth PITCHER of 13, Silver Street daughter of John PITCHER, Boatman. Witnesses: Charles BAILEY, Annie PITCHER

St George's Baptisms for the children of William John & Emma PITCHER, Waterman, 5, Farrier Street
  9/9/1903  William Henry   born 10/9/1900                     
  9/9/1903  Sydney Albert   born 6/8/1903                       
23/2/1906  Gladys Annie                                                    5, Ivy Place
  4/11/1908  Elsie Mary                                                       5, Griffin Street

Though there is no record of John's birth there is a baptism for St Andrew's on 27/3/1869 for an Edward PITCHER, son of George & Anne, Labourer of George Street. Possible for John's younger brother but no solid evidence.

I cannot find any further records of John & Annie's children nor the marriage of his father, George, suggesting that they might have moved into the area then moved out again.

Regards

AJ

[Jeff Holzgrefe]

Dear AJ,

Thanks for the info on the Pitcher line.  I haven't had a chance to digest it yet as I've been chipping away at the Charles HENRY Bailey problem.  I'm pleased to report that I have finally discovered who his parents are.  They are, as I suspected but couldn't definitively prove, William Henry Bailey and Caroline Elizabeth Bailey.  I found the smoking gun in the 1911 census (attached below).  As you can see, Charles Henry Bailey (age 26) was married to Annie Bailey (age 28).  They had been married 7 years and had had four children of whom only Charles Henry (age 6) and Caroline (age 2) survived.  (Note that their other two children William John and Robert Isaac both died before the 1911 census).  In short, everything above is consistent with what is known about the Charles Bailey who was the son of William Henry Bailey and Caroline Elizabeth Bailey.

What proves my claim, however, is that the census also reports that Charles Henry's two brothers, Robert Isaac (age 23) and Wallace James (age 28) were living with him at 10 Chapel St. Deal on census night.  This fits, firstly, with the Wallace J Bailey who was the son of William H Bailey and Caroline E Bailey and hence the brother of Charles R Bailey according to the 1891 census (attached).  Further confirmation that Wallace James Bailey was the son of William H Bailey and Caroline Elizabeth Bailey can be found in fact that a Wallace James Bailey, son of Willie Henry Bailey and Caroline Bailey, was baptised on 2 Apr 1884 at St. George's Church, Deal.  (This would make Wallace 28 at the time of the 1911 census).  Second, Robert Isaac Bailey, another son of Willie Henry Bailey and Caroline Bailey, was baptised on 15 Oct 1891 in Deal.  The 1891 Census also makes Charles Robert Bailey 26 at the time of the 1911 Census as was Charles Henry Bailey.

I think the above conclusively demonstrates that the Charles HENRY Bailey who was the father of Wallace James Bailey (b 1911). and the Charles ROBERT Bailey who married Annie Pitcher in 1903 and who, according to the 1891 census, was the son of William Henry Bailey and Caroline Elizabeth Bailey was one and the same person.

Let me know what you think.

Jeff Holzgrefe

Copyright images removed.   Only small sections can be posted for deciphering purposes. 
 

[Karen Mapp]

Hi,

I also came across the 1911 entry. Which I agree, does show my initial feeling to be correct. Would be interesting to find a death certificate or other corresponding eveidence to support it as well. However the next step is to find Robert - William H's father and locate the mother

[AJ100]

Hello Jeff
Well done on your deductions. I have checked and cannot find Charles Henry baptised to William Henry & Caroline. Doesn't mean much in itself - people went away and had children in other towns.
If you are right, I have rounded up a few more  details.

On 21/10/1880 Willy Henry BAILEY, 24, Waterman of St George's, son of Robert BAILEY, Waterman
 married at St George's Church Caroline Elizabeth CLEMENTS, 26, Widow of St George's, daughter of James BAILEY, Waterman
           Witnesses: W.H.HARRIS, Sgt. R.M., May HARRIS

Children of William Henry & Caroline BAILEY, Waterman all baptised at St George's Church, Deal. As always, dates are of baptism.

  3/7/1881  Willie Henry              26, Middle Street
24/5/1882  Mary Ann Sutton      24, Middle Street
  2/4/1884  Walace James                Custom House Lane
11/2/1885  George Robert               Custom House Lane
27/10/1886  George Henry              Custom House Lane
15/10/1891  Robert Isaac           11, Market Street
  4/12/1893  Harry                       11, Market Street

19/4/1876 St George's: Thomas John CLEMENTS, 23, Waterman, son of John CLEMENTS, Painter
married Caroline Elizabeth BAILEY, 23, daughter of James BAILEY, Waterman
Witnesses: Harvey BAILEY, Mary CLEMENTS
Caroline was baptised 17/4/1857 to James Thomas & Maryanne BAILEY, Waterman of 6, Oak Street

Possible for Willie's father is Robert Mummery & Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY, Waterman of Chapel Lane.
2 relevant baptisms: 18/3/1857 William Henry and 2/12/1859 William James. Stating the obvious, the first one must have died for there to have been a second William and that William is not William Henry.

Don't know if this will be of any use

Regards

AJ

 

[Jeff Holzgrefe]

Hello AJ,

You don't you if any of this will be of use?  Are you kidding?  You have solved yet another mystery!

William Henry Bailey's mother was indeed Caroline Elizabeth Bailey.  The smoking gun is the 1881 Census which reveals all three generations living together at 26 Middle St Deal -- James Thomas Bailey, his wife Mary Ann, their daughter Caroline Elizabeth and her son William Henry.  Thank you so much.  I would never have thought to look for an earlier marriage. 

Sad story, by the way.  It appears that Caroline Elizabeth got married, had a son, lost her son, and then her husband all within two months in 1876 (she married one week before she gave birth presumably to ensure that her child would be legitimate).

I haven't had a chance to research your Robert Mummery Bailey hypothesis.  I'll let you know what I uncover.

Once again thank you for all your help.  I simply couldn't have done it without you.

Jeff

[AJ100]

Glad to be of help, Jeff.

Regards

AJ

[Jeff Holzgrefe]

Dear AJ,

I've run into a something of brick wall searching for William Henry BAILEY's parents.

As you discovered from the registry entry for his marriage at St. George's Parish Church, Deal on Oct 21, 1880, William Henry's father was a waterman by the name of Robert BAILEY.

You also raised the possibility that Robert Mummery BAILEY, Waterman of Chapel Lane, Deal, and his wife Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY may be William Henry's parents.  Evidence consists of the fact that Robert Mummery BAILEY and Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY had two sons, William Henry, and William James, who were baptised in Deal on 18 March, 1857 and 2 December, 1859 respectively.  This fits nicely with William Henry BAILEY's age of 24 and his father's name and occupation recorded in his marriage entry. 

However, you dismiss the possibility that this Robert and Catherine were William Henry's parents because their first child "must have died for there to have been a second William and that William is not William Henry."

Normally, I'd agree without hesitation, but there is nothing normal about the BAILEY family!  For instance, according to the 1891 Census, William H. BAILEY, age 41, had a younger brother Willie H. BAILEY, age 39 (and a wife Caroline Elizabeth BAILEY, age 40, and sons Wallace James BAILEY, Robert Isaac BAILEY and Willie R. BAILEY) living with him at 10 Market St. Deal on census night.  While the birth dates (abt 1850 and abt 1852 versus 1857 and 1859) fit poorly with the William Henry BAILEY and the William James BAILEY who were the sons of Robert Mummery BAILEY, you do have the truly bizarre coincidence that in 1891 my William Henry BAILEY had a brother, two years younger than he, who possessed virtually the same name.  In other words, it seems to me that Robert Mummery BAILEY and Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY had two sons, William and Willie, born two years apart, who both lived to adulthood.

I've looked for supporting evidence for this hypothesis (and for anything on Robert Mummery BAILEY and Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY generally), but have drawn a blank.  It is not that I just cannot find any supporting evidence.  The problem is I haven't found anything which disproves my suspicion that Robert Mummery BAILEY is William Henry BAILEY's father either.

Two questions: in light of the above, do you still think that Robert Mummery BAILEY and Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY can't William Henry BAILEY's parents?  And if so, do you have any additional evidence that decides the matter one way or the other?

Once again, my very deepest thanks for all your assistance with my research.

With best wishes,

Jeff