Author Topic: Celts descend from Spanish  (Read 9627 times)

Offline XPhile2868

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Celts descend from Spanish
« on: Sunday 24 September 06 19:00 BST (UK) »
Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds
By Guy Adams
Published: 20 September 2006

Don't tell the locals, but the hordes of British holidaymakers who visited Spain this summer were, in fact, returning to their ancestral home.

A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between 4,000 and 5,000BC.

The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of Britishness.

People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel. Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are actually descended from the Spanish."

Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our genetic roots.

Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.

The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings. Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans.

These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in the British Isles.

"Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not the case," Professor Sykes said.

"This is significant, because the idea of a separate Celtic race is deeply ingrained in our political structure, and has historically been very divisive. Culturally, the view of a separate race holds water. But from a genetic point of view, Britain is emphatically not a divided nation."

Origins of Britons

Oisin

Descended from Iberian fishermen who migrated to Britain between 4,000 and 5,000BC and now considered the UK's indigenous inhabitants.

Wodan

Second most common clan arrived from Denmark during Viking invasions in the 9th century.

Sigurd

Descended from Viking invaders who settled in the British Isles from AD 793. One of the most common clans in the Shetland Isles, and areas of north and west Scotland.

Eshu

The wave of Oisin immigration was joined by the Eshu clan, which has roots in Africa. Eshu descendants are primarily found in coastal areas.

Re

A second wave of arrivals which came from the Middle East. The Re were farmers who spread westwards across Europe.

Roman

Although the Romans ruled from AD 43 until 410, they left a tiny genetic footprint. For the first 200 years occupying forces were forbidden from marrying locally.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1621766.ece
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Offline kerryb

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Re: Celts descend from Spanish
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 24 September 06 22:23 BST (UK) »
I heard this on the radio yesterday, fascinating subject, thanks for the link.

And the media think immigration is a modern idea!!!!!!!

Kerry
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Re: Celts descend from Spanish
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 24 September 06 22:33 BST (UK) »
The problem with this and similar theories is the presumption that the lands were empty before these people came along.
Archealogical evidence shows otherwise.
You also have the case that in many instances especially of so called invaders they were in comparatively few numbers and were often subsumed into the general population leaving only their genetic fingerprints behind.
I have read part of the book and it certainly paints a rather more complicated picture than the simplified version that the Independant does.

Offline Gadget

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Re: Celts descend from Spanish
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 24 September 06 22:38 BST (UK) »
I've also read quite a bit on this and, over the years,  I've seen quite a few tele programmes about 'The Celts' - whoever they/we are  ??? ??? ???

As Falkyrn says, it's a far more complex subject than is made out.

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Offline bodger

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Re: Celts descend from Spanish
« Reply #4 on: Monday 25 September 06 07:22 BST (UK) »
Back in the1960s, Bob Quinn, an Irish film producer, made a film about the origins of the Celts, his film had a similar theory, he recorded traditional music from the Gaetach areas, and played records of it to a tribe of Moors, they regognised the music, one of his thoughts was wether the "Morris Dancers", were originaly Moorish Dancers, as they have very similar performances. bodger
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Offline Crinoline

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Re: Celts descend from Spanish
« Reply #5 on: Monday 25 September 06 10:07 BST (UK) »
An interesting topic...

One of my father's brothers, (who had grown up bi-lingual in Welsh and English) & who was very interested in languages generally, - always reckoned that there were strong similarities between Welsh & Catalan Spanish, - this would explain why.

Romilly.
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Offline Watermusic

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Re: Celts descend from Iberian source?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 25 September 06 10:17 BST (UK) »
I've always considered that the Celts spread out from wherever (which could have been Iberia, although mostly in imagination thought - sort of Hungary) and all the most "undiluted" ended up on the west and north-west of Europe - Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, Ireland and Scotland.
Many people forget to include the Northern coast of the Iberian peninsula - Galicia, which definitely has Celtic traditions, and the Basque.
As far as I know the only early boats discovered here in Portugal have been of the hollowed out tree canoe type, and although they might have been sea-going, it's not an easy journey across the Bay of Biscay!

The "Moors" or Arabs of the North African migration didn't cross over to Europe until the early 8th Century, and had no great sea-going tradition.
As to the Morris/Moorish dancers, there is certainly one Portuguese folk troup that has a similar traditional form, but I reckon the Moors' arrival was too late for any basic genetic source.

The Phoenecians of 1st millenium BC (most traces of whom are on the coastal regions) were trading rather than colonising outside the Mediterranean, although they figure strongly in the ethnic origins of the people of Aveiro and Nazare of Portugal, they are not quite early enough.

Watermusic

P.S. When people say Spain and mean the Iberian peninsula, it always annoys me - Portugal was a country before Castille, Leon, Navarre and Aragon all merged by virtue of marriage into Spain (Ferdinand and Isabella). Incidently, whilst googling some references, I found that "Spain" means 'rabbit coast' in Phoenecian.




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Offline CarolBurns

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Re: Celts descend from Spanish
« Reply #7 on: Monday 25 September 06 12:08 BST (UK) »
I remember my Dad telling me last year that he had seen a TV programme that linked the Welsh to the Basques.
There was a write up on the BBc site
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm

Very interesting topic though and worth keeping an eye on for later info.

I don't think any of us will be lucky enough to trace back to them though unless they came over in the last 200 years or so

Might be interesting to do a DNA test, as Colin Jackson did in WDYTYA, just to see what the results would be

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Re: Celts descend from Spanish
« Reply #8 on: Monday 25 September 06 13:12 BST (UK) »
Quote
Might be interesting to do a DNA test, as Colin Jackson did in WDYTYA, just to see what the results would be

Strangely the book comes with an offer of a dna test or at least a discounted one... but on checking the mentioned company's web site it  appears to be a list of adverts amongst which are dna sites .... one promises
Quote
Match "Niall of the Nine Hostages" (Irish Ancestry)
• Match "The Romanovs" (Royal Lines)
• Match Thomas Jefferson" (Presential)
• Find out if you have Native American Ancestry    
• Match Marie Antoinette
• Match Genghis Khan (Mongolian Ancestry)
• Match Cohanim (Jewish Ancestry)

while another lists similar categories to that seen in the list held by Colin Jackson ..... European appears to be the limit of their dissemination of the different "clans" identified in the book and article.

I become ever more sceptical of this branch of science and its uses - it does have a place but its uses to date do not inspire confidence.