Thetfords

[ShHerman]

Now onto the reason I have come to this particular inquiry regarding the Ireland Thetford. If what I described was not already pretty complex in a number of ways. There is the matter of Henry Thetford.

Henry Thetford first appeared in the records of Northampton (as far as I have been able to determine) on the Jun 1826 Poll. Per the poll he was residing on Gregory Street and was a laborer. *Be it noted that no family story ever talked about Charles Thetford having gone by another name.

On the 11 Feb 1829 Northampton General Hospital records, Henry Thetford is recorded as having been admitted due to an injury to the side.

There is one other Thetford of note who appears in Northampton. Mary Thetford. Northampton General Hospital shows Mary Thetford having be admitted on 26 Jan 1822, 22 Feb 1823 Out Patient, 22 Mar 1823, and Out Patient 10 May 1823. Mary Thetford was buried 25 Sep 1826 in Northampton. Her age put her born around about 1793.

Based on her age I would suspect that she is the wife of Charles Thetford or Henry Thetford. I have searched high and low for marriage between a Charles Thetford and Mary or Henry Thetford and Mary.

- Charles Titford married 9 Jul 1827 Saint Pancras, London to Mary Wingrove.
*I could not find any marriage for a Charles Thetford married to Mary before 1822.

The search for a Henry Thetford being married to Mary proved more successful.
- Henry Thetford married 3 Mar 1817 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England to Mary Brown. According to the marriage Henry Thetford was a soldier in the 85th regiment. Mary Brown was was recorded as a spinster.

For kicks and giggles, I decided to look up Mary Brown born about 1793 in Lancashire. There is definitely possibility here. Plenty of possibilities. It is looking possible that the Mary Thetford who died in Northampton Sep 1826 could be Mary Brown who married Henry Thetford.

I then followed the military movements of Henry Thetford. He was born abt 1792 in Clones, Monaghan, Ireland. He joined the 85th Regiment on 24 Sep 1814 in Newry, Down, Northern Ireland. He finds his way over to Northamptonshire where he is stationed toward the end of 1816. He later is married the 3 Mar 1817 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England to Mary Brown. Less than 2 years later he was discharged from Military Service 12 Jan 1819 in Plymouth, Devon, England.

Thinking back about Mary Thetford, we know she was seen in Northampton 26 Jan 1822. It is probably safe to conclude she was also there at least toward the of 1821. This would only have been 3 years after Henry Thetford would have been discharged from the Army. Pension records and Discharge Records may be insightful.

Also thinking back, we can remember that Henry Thetford appears in the Northampton Hospital Records due to an injury to the side 11 Feb 1829. This is only a few months after Charles Thetford was married to Fanny Barwell born as Mason 1 Dec 1828. Oddly enough all mention of Henry Thetford ceases after this Hospital record. The Northampton records have no death record for Henry Thetford. Based on the evidences it would seem he got up and left the area.

There is a Henry Thetford who married Bridget Flinn 8 Aug 1831 in Manchester, Lancashire, England (only a little more than 2 years after Henry Thetford vanishes from the records of Northampton). According to the marriage record Henry Thetford is a joiner. *The family search tree seems to be suggesting this Henry Thetford that married Bridget Flinn would have been born about 1793 in Clones, Monaghan, Ireland (I really wish I knew where this conclusion originates).

The plot thickens. As chances would have it this Henry Thetford and Bridget found their way over to Sydney, Australia. In the Australian Newspapers located on Trove it makes mention in "The Tasmanian" Newspaper on Friday, 21 Jun 1833, page 5 regarding a Henry Thetford.
"WEDNESDAY, JUNE 19. 1833. On the opening of the Court, Henry Thetford, a pensioner, was called up for judgement, having confessed to a petty larceny. This poor old man it seems, was urged to the commission of his offence, by poverty, and his Honor, in passing sentence, took this into consideration, and strongly animadverted on the bad and cruel policy of sending out persons of this description, to this Colony. He was sentenced to 6 Months imprisonment and hard labour."

[ShHerman]

There is another Newspaper mention that also appears interesting in the "The Colonist and Van Diemen's Land Commercial and Agricultural Advertiser" on Tuesday 2 Jul 1833.

Here is the excerpt:
Law Report.
BY OUR REPORTER.)
SUPREME COURT-CRIMINAL SIDE, Wednesday, 19th JUNE, 1833, Before Mr. Justice Montagu, and a Military Jury.
Henry Thetford, a "Commuted Pensioner," was arraigned for stealing one axe, the property of District Constable Peel. The prisoner pleaded Guilty to the indictment, and though cautioned by the Judge, that his plea would not militate in his favor, persisted therein. "I have" says the shadow of what was once a man, "been thirty-three years in His Majesty's Service, and this is the first Court, MILITARY or otherwise, I was ever brought before." He prayed for mercy. Mr. Justice Montagu, in passing sentence on the prisoner, stated his conviction, that from what he had heard of his previous good conduct, together with the length of time he had been in the service, that he was induced to commit the offence through poverty and hunger, the sentence of the Court would be lenient under such circumstances; and the result was, that Thetford was sentenced to six months imprisonment, and hard labour. After passing sentence, Mr. Justice Montagu, with that decisive promptitude, which is a leading feature of his character, turned round to the Jury, and observed, that this was a case of peculiar hardship---these poor pensioners came out here half starved, and the extreme of misery to which they were reduced on their arrival, forced them to commit such offences, for the purpose of attracting public attention to their distressed situation. The prisoner, a decent clean looking old man, was removed from the bar; he has a wife in the last stage of pregnancy, and two children.---God help them!"

[ShHerman]

Honestly, there is just so many "Coincidences" I am beginning to have suspicious wonderings if there is a connection between my ancestor Charles Thetford and this Henry Thetford. If Henry Thetford who came to Northampton was pensioner in the army. If he returned to Manchester area where other Thetford relatives from Clones, Monaghan were residing. If he married to Bridget Flinn while in Manchester, Lancashire. If he traveled to Australia and had family there where he committed a crime due to his circumstances. Both Henry Thetford and Charles Thetford resided on Gregory Street. If there is a relation between the 2, I will laugh silly. I have seen many oddities over the years, but this is definitely a series of unique ones. Finding the pension records for Henry Thetford would be a very important thing I would imagine that may help explain these strange things. If Charles Thetford and Henry Thetford are brothers, the question becomes what brought their mother and children to London. Where did Mary Thetford who married James Killfoyl come from? Is she the sister of Henry and Charles? Just so many oddities. So many things that appear plausible. The Thetford is one crazy line to research, I will give it that. Nothing is as it seems and there is far more to everything that first meets the eye.

I have requested several records from the Australian birth records regarding Henry and Bridget's kids. We shall see if these records provide any additional insight when I receive them.

[ShHerman]

Now this is where I am at... running my hands through my hair... bewildered, confused, mystified, suspicious, curious, and about every other similar emotion you can imagine.

[ShHerman]

Only recently has everything fallen into place. Indeed Henry Thetford was a brother of Charles Thetford, this is the only conclusion that makes sense as to why both resided on Gregory Street around the same time. Both were not natives to Northampton.

Quoting from message posted as « Reply #9 on: Wednesday 14 August 24 04:29 BST (UK) » "The plot thickens. As chances would have it this Henry Thetford and Bridget found their way over to Sydney, Australia."

From here the tale broadens.
Sarah Flinn Thetford was born to Henry Thetford and Bridget Flinn about Jun 1831 in Manchester, Lancashire, England. She was buried 27 Sep 1832 in Hobart Town at the age of 15 months. Father's occupation was Pensioners Child. The last name on this record was spelled Tedford.

Other children:
- Ann Thetford born 14 Apr 1834 Epping, New South Wales, Australia. Baptized 11 May 1834 Sydney, NSW, Australia. Died 20 May 1848 Sydney, NSW, Australia. Buried 22 May 1848 Sydney, NSW, Australia.
- Henry Thetford born 17 Apr 1838 Goulburn, NSW, Australia. Baptized 15 May 1838 St Saviour Argyle, NSW, Australia. Buried 20 May 1838 Goulburn, NSW, Australia.
- James Thetford born 31 Mar 1839 Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Baptized 5 Apr 1839 Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. *I have yet to determine what became of James or his mother Bridget.

After Henry Thetford and Bridget Flinn were married 8 Aug 1831 in Manchester, Lancashire, England they went to Ireland (actually I think the more accurate phrasing here is "returned" to Ireland - I have reason to suspect the Bridget Flinn may have been from Ireland originally). On 4 Dec 1831 from Dublin; aboard the Cleopatra; "Henry Tedford Wife & 2 Children" set sail for Australia. They arrived in Hobart Town, Tasmania, Australia 4 May 1832.

I searched as to what could a brought Henry Thetford. As best as I can figure it was the possible combination of 3 things. (1) Officer Military Pensioners around this time were recommended to go to Australia. (2) Living conditions in Ireland. (3) Peter Flynn had come to Australia (not entirely sure when, so this may not be a contributing factor). There was another Thetford in Hobart Town by the name of Elizabeth Thetford who had been transported from London due to Larceny. She is not a relative of Henry and was not among his reasons for having gone to Australia. Elizabeth Thetford was determined to be a daughter of William Thetford the Grocer from London.

[ShHerman]

After the court matters in 1833, Henry Thetford purchased property on 4 Sep 1835 in Goulburn from Matthew Healey. 2 May 1836 before a Military Jury Peter Flynn, W. R. Williams, David Newton, and Henry Thetford were recorded as witnesses for the prosecution.

8 Mar 1838 in Sydney there was a court case "to recover compensation for a trespass on land at Goulburn" for Thetford v. Healey.

Some point after this Henry Thetford must have fallen further on some hard times. On the 22 Jan 1839 and 22 Jan 1839 the following Notice appeared in the Newspaper: "NOTICE. IF HENRY THETFORD does not call on the undersigned and release the Watch left with her for £1 2s 6d and pay the expenses of this advertisement, the same will be sold. MARY ANN CALLAGHAN."

1 Feb 1839 in Sydney, Henry Thetford a carpenter is said to have an unclaimed letter. From this we can glean that Henry Thetford took up Carpentry.

In the 1841 census Henry Thetford resided in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. To summarize the many numbers on the Census: "Male 21 and under 45: 1 (Henry) + Female Under 2: 1 (Ann) + Female 21 and under 45: 1 (Bridget); All are Free; [Denomination:] Church of England; House [made of] Stone or Brick [that is] Finished [and] Inhabited". *Even though I have not found any further information regarding James Thetford. This record would seem to suggest that James would have died at some point prior to the census.

On 2 Sep 1841 Henry Thetford was listed amongst a list of subscriptions to Melbourne Hospital.

On both 1 Apr 1846 and 11 Apr 1846 in the Geelong Post-Office, Henry Thetford had 2 unclaimed letters.

Then on 15 Mar 1848 Henry Thetford becomes a part of history and goes to Melbourne Hospital as an out patient on the Hospital's opening day.

On 23 Sep 1848 in the Benevolent Asylum, Sydney, NSW, Australia - Henry Thetford died. He was buried 25 Sep 1848 in Sydney, NSW, Australia.

So concludes the life of Henry Thetford. It has taken much time and effort to uncover it from its beginning to its end.

[ShHerman]

Henry Thetford [and his brother Charles] are determined to be a son of Henry Thetford born about 1758 in Ireland. His burial entry in St George, Dublin 1830 reads: "Henry Thetford | Smithboro | 14 January | 72". So it was that in Jan 1830 Henry Thetford (the father) died in Smithborough, Monaghan Co., Ireland. From there he was buried in St George, Dublin.

Henry's wife Anne Thetford was recorded later in the register of St George. Her 1833 entry reads: "Anne Tedford | Smith Boro | 25 Sep | 72". It is concluded that in Sep 1833 Anne Tedford (the mother) died in Smithborough, Monaghan Co., Ireland. From there she was buried in St George, Dublin. This record puts her birth about 1761 in Ireland.

Henry Thetford and Anne had several children.
- John Thetford born abt 1789 most likely in Clones, Monaghan Co., Ireland. He was married in Ireland to Ann (not sure on her last name). *They had 3 children that I know of:
     - Eliza Thetford born abt 1820 in Ireland oo James Long 31 May 1858 Manchester, Lancashire, England *Still trying to figure out what became of her after the marriage. Nothing substantial as of yet, only a possible 1861 Census record that I have put a note "Use with caution - not proven".
     - James Thetford born abt 1827 in Ireland oo Elfreda Elizabeth Brimilow 13 Feb 1830 St Helens, Lancashire, England. He died 29 Nov 1888 in Hoole, Cheshire, England.
     - Ann Thetford born abt 1835 in Manchester, Lancashire, England oo George Robinson 25 Aug 1866 Manchester, Lancashire, England. In 1901 census she was residing in Allithwaite, Lancashire, England. She would have died after this, still trying to find that detail.
- William Thetford born abt 1794 in Dublin, Ireland oo Mary (last name at the time of this message is unknown). He died 17 Feb 1863 in Salford, Lancashire, England. They had 5 children that I have been able to find (up to the time of this message):
     - Jane Thetford born abt 1814 in Dublin, Ireland oo Adam Craig 21 Dec 1847 Manchester, Lancashire, England. I have her 1851 Census record in Salford, after this I have not found further trace of her, still researching.
     - Elizabeth Thetford born abt 1818 in Ireland (most likely Dublin). She died 28 Mar 1851 at the Workhouse on New Bridge Street Manchester. She never married, but had at least one child.
     - Jessey Thetford born abt 1819 in Dublin, Ireland oo Edward Todd 8 Dec 1840 Manchester, Lancashire, England. She died 31 Dec 1888 in Manchester, Lancashire, England.
     - Henry Thetford born abt 1821 in Dublin, Ireland oo Sarah Walker 17 Oct 1842 Eccles, Lancashire, England. He died 5 Sep 1895 in Union Infirmary, Salford.
     - Andrew Thetford born abt 1826 in Manchester, baptized 16 Apr 1826 Manchester, Buried 16 Apr 1828 Manchester.

I suspect John Thetford came to England after the passing of his mother Anne.

Henry Thetford truly has been the key to the finding of the ancestral family.

Speaking of Henry Thetford (the father) born about 1758 in Ireland is a brother of William Thetford whom we shall say was born somewhere around 1755 (not based on any record, just being utilized for research purposes). He married Jane Dunlope about 1778 in Ireland. They together had many children. I will not discuss them at this time, but many of the findable Thetford's (as of the time of this message) descend from this couple.

Henry Thetford and William Thetford along with Nicholas Thetford are sons of Nicholas Thetford a Surgeon from Monaghan, Monaghan Co., Ireland. Per the probate/will indexes he would have died around 1783 in Clones, Monaghan, Ireland.

Whomever shall come across this message who seeks the Thetford lines I have indicated will have come across a treasure trove of information that will help them forward. It has taken a long time to gather all this information, but now it is recorded for all to see.

[ShHerman]

On findmypast one can see a Pension record for Nicholas Thetford.
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=GBM%2FGREP%2FNAVY%2F00704564&tab=this
Greenwich Hospital pensioners 1704-1869
7729 | [Entry] March 9 1763 | Nichl Thetford | Penr [*Pensioner] | DD | [Time] Octob | 14 | 1765
*specific to British Royal Navy & Royal Marines Service And Pension Records, 1704-1939

There are 2 other Navy Records pertaining to Thomas Thetford found on Findmypast.

[Ship: Russel] No on Ship's Book: 188 | No of Triplicate: 3229 | Name: Thomas Thetford | Quality: Ab[le Seaman] | Wife or Mother: We [*Wife] Jane | Children Boys [ 0 ] Girls 2 | Residence: Long Acre | per Day: 5 | per Month: 11/8 | When allotted: 1 Jany 96 | By whom paid: Treasurer Navy | When Allotment ceases: 15 Oct 96 Impetueux [changed ships] | Amount charged on Pay Books: [15 Oct 96] 6. 0. 5
*Note that there was an earlier date 30 Sep 95, but Thomas is not listed for that date.
 
I don't have enough time currently to record about the second entry.

In the Non-Conformist Records there is an entry pertaining Thomas Thetford from St Giles (son to Thomas Thetford)
Spa Fields Burial Ground located in the parish of St James, Clerkenwell
1785 August 3 | Theford Thomas St Giles Cripplegate | [Y] 1 | [M] 3

Who is Thomas Thetford who served in the Navy? He is the only Thetford I could ever find in St Giles, Cripplegate around the time Charles Thetford would have been there. I strongly suspect that Thomas Thetford is a son of Nicholas Thetford from Ireland. As best as I can figure Charles Thetford and at least his mother came to visit Thomas Thetford and his family. This explains why Henry Thetford never officially appears (as far as I can see). They later returned to Ireland. Charles Thetford later follows his brother Henry Thetford to Northampton (I imagine Henry when he was stationed there a few years previous really liked it there and decided to return - this is about the only explanation I have come up with).

[ShHerman]

[Ship: Impetueux] Russell 1 Jan 96 | No on Ship's Book: 55 6. 0. 5 | No of Triplicate: 3229 | Name: Thomas Thetford | Quality: Ab[le Seaman] | Wife or Mother: We [*Wife] Jane | Children Boys 2 Girls [ 0 ] | Residence: Long Acre | per Day: 5 | per Month: 11.8 | When allotted: 16 Oct 96 | By whom paid: Treasurer | When Notice Given: 28736 55.15.7 | Amount charged on Pay Books: [30 April 97] 4. 2. 8; [31 Oct 97] 4. 12. 0; [30 April 97] 4. 10. 6; [31 Oct 98] 4. 12. 0; [30 April 99] 4. 10. 6; [31 Oct 99] 4. 12. 0; [30 April 1800] 4. 10. 6; [31 Oct 1800] 4. 12. 0; [30 Apr 1801] 4. 10. 6; [Paid Off 15 Apr 1802] 9. 2. 6
*Note regarding the 6. 0. 5 and the date of 1 Jan 96 are carried over items from the other record - A head nod toward the the record on the Russell so to speak.
*Note regarding dates listed for payments, these are ending dates.

https://search.findmypast.com/record?id=S2%2FGBM%2FADM27%2F102103853%2F00277&parentid=GBM%2FADM27%2F2%2F000113057