A Russian Willis in Brighton

[kizmiaz]

Hi

I have a marriage certificate that shows my great-grandfather as Charles Adam Willis (c1878), and my great-great-grandfather as Charles Payne Willis.

Charles Adam Willis is listed as a 'carpenter journeyman' from 5 Cheltenham Place, Brighton
Charles Payne Willis is listed as a 'carpenter'.

When my grandmother was growing up, she had always been told that she is part-Russian on her fathers side, and believes that certainly her grandfather (Charles Payne) was fully Russian, but doesn't know if her grandmother was as well.

She has been led to believe that her grandfathers original name was something like Wiliski (which doesn't sound likely, as Russians don't use W). I would guess more at Vilitski or Vilinski, as these are more common Russian or Baltic surnames.

My question for today is - did the Census anglisize foreign names to the closest approximation, and if so, is there a record of the original Russian name. Or has my grandmother been given the wrong information, and that there is no foreign blood on this side of her family?

[Little Nell]

Hi kizmiaz,

Welcome to Rootschat.

Have I read you message correctly and Charles Adam Willis was born in 1878?  If so, I have found him and his father in Brighton in 1881 at 21 Blucher Place.  Charles senior was a carpenter.  However, the entry records that Charles and all his family were born in Brighton.  So it doesn't look like there was any Russian origin there. 

If Charles Payne Willis were really Russian, then his middle name would be his patronymic name - based on the name of his father e.g.  Pavlovich for son of Pavel or Paul, Ivanovich for son of Ivan.  Payne looks remarkably English to me. 

Do you already have the 1881 census entry or would you like me to post it for you?

Nell

[Berlin-Bob]

Hi Kizmiaz,

In general, there is no hard and fast answer here, it depends on who changed the name and why. It may be the enumerator "doing his best" with foreign names, it may be the immigration authorities, it may be the person himself, quietly changing to something less "foreign", it may be  ...  etc.

I have put some general thoughts about this question on Immigrants,
Sharing Useful Tips: GERMANY and E. Europe 

rather than repeat everything, have a look there. Afterwards, you may think of a new question, so, ask again 

ps.
another possibility, is that your info. is wrong ! sorry, but "foreign" blood sounds more exotic to some. 
My g-grandfather supposedly came from Germany, but I have no documentary proof, so, for now, it has to remain a family myth !

[kizmiaz]

Hi,

Yes, I've seen the 1881 census for 21 Blucher Place (wherever that may have been), but I wasn't sure if it was usual practise for the enumerator to change a few details if he wasn't sure of them, such as a name or birthplace if he had been given a foreign name and couldn't spell or couldn't understand it.

I knew about patronymics, and was trying to think of any normal Russian names that could be similar. I can imagine a name change of Karl Vilitski to Charles Willis, but I am stumped as to where Payne came from if there had been a name change. I had never heard the name before, so doubt if an immigrant would have chosen it.

Even on the off chance that he was Russian, I also suppose that there was no official need to register a name change, and people were just called what they asked others to call them.

Maybe it was just another family myth!

[Chris in 1066Land]

Hi Again

RG10/ 1077/ Folio 16/ Page 13 - 15 Lennox Street, Brighton

1871 England Census
Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island 
 
Charles Paine Willis 24  Brighton, Sussex, England Head  Brighton  Sussex   
Ellen Willis 2  Brighton, Sussex, England Daughter  Brighton  Sussex   
Priscilla Willis 21  Brighton, Sussex, England Wife  Brighton  Sussex 

Occupation of Charles is Carpenter

It all looks very English to me

Chris in 1066Land
089

[Chris in 1066Land]

Hi again

I have just checked on the 1851 census for Brighton (the part that I have is the outskirts HO107/ 1647) and although there is one Willis family listed, they were all born in Brighton - but non of them match your criteria..

There is one person on the sussex boards who has access to the 1851 for the central part of Brighton - so please post another request for Brighton 1851 for Charles Pain Willis aged 4 and family

Chris in 1066Land
090

[kizmiaz]

Again, many thanks for the info.

I think its pretty definite that my grandmother was being led up the garden path about a Russian connection, certainly on this side of her family.

I wonder where and why the rumour started?

[annem]

Hi
This is a Long shot but it is possible that your Charles Payne Willis
is related to the Payne's I have been working on.
Randolph Payne's second wife was Mary Ann Willis ( Married Covent Garden 1826)
They moved to Brighton around 1850
Prior to this marriage Randolph had been a woolen draper. After he became a very successful wine merchant.
 
Sorry that this doesn't directly help you, but I will see what I can find.
Anne

[Rod In Sussex]

You might have a garbelled story with a hint of truth behind it. It might be that "grandfather" had been in Russia!

As you family were carpenters, was there a connection with the Baltic timber trade? Had he been involved in the Crimea War? Was there a generation jump in the story and was there an earlier link to Russia? Or was the link to Prussia (part of Germany) as there are stronger German links with the Hanoverian monarchy. There are many things that can be misunderstood in a family history, so keep looking and do not lose that dream!

Rod