Welsh or English? Montgomeryshire, Shropshire?

[Lemmey]

I wasn't even sure whether to post this on the Welsh or English board   

I have the following all found on the English census -

Thomas Francis born 1868 Oswestry Shropshire - English I assume although I am a little confused now by seeing Oswestry listed on the Welsh board on here (I was born there)

Thomas Francis born 1844  Clun, Montgomeryshire, Shropshire - anyone know why it is listed like that?  I thought Montgomeryshire was a county in Wales 

Margaret Francis born 1866 Montgomery, Montgomeryshire, Shropshire - question as above

Mary Winifred Francis born 1862 Oswestry, Denighshire, Shropshire  - I thought Oswestry was in Shropshire not Denighshire 

I had always been told some relatives on that side of the family were Welsh but according to Free BDM and indeed the census reports they are all English.  Plus if as I think likely some children were born one side of the border (if Montgomeryshire is Wales  ) and some the other does that make some English and some Welsh in the same family?



 

[D ap D]

the town for the registrations was probably Oswestry, although strictly speaking it is in Shropshire.

Depends on how they felt themselves. One of my Aunties was born in Oswestry, and even now can hardly string a sentence together in English, as she comes from a strong farming background with their roots firmly in Wales.

As far as the census's go, they can only contain what the emunerator filled in.....

D

[Lemmey]

Birth certificates don't give nationality either do they?  I think I may send for some at some point.

Strange - as I said I am Oswestry born with, I was told Welsh roots on my mother's side, but have always thought of myself as English as that is what i was told.  I'm not sure it does go on what you feel more where you are born. 

Then again I was born in Oswestry hospital and my parents lived in Gobowen. If they had lived in Wales I would probably consider myself Welsh despite being born in the nearest hospital and registered in the nearest town.

My sister was born in Pant Glas.  I thought that was in England also but a quick websearch shows it as being in Wales.

Does anyone know if the Welsh/English border moved about over the years or has it always been in the same place?  I think I need to brush up on some history.  Any links or information appreciated.

[davierj]

Hi Lemmy

As far as I am aware (and am open to correction) in the 19th century censi the national border was not the same as the enumeration boundaries.   Strictly speaking Wales was regarded as part of England and some parts of Montgomeryshire were listed in Shropshire and visa versa.

From what you have said, in the border country 'nationality' was where the heart was, and rightly so.   Coming from a county where pub opening on a Sunday came VERY late, I can only imagine the dilemma.

Cheers or iechyd da Dave

[Lemmey]

Hi Lemmy

As far as I am aware (and am open to correction) in the 19th century censi the national border was not the same as the enumeration boundaries.   Strictly speaking Wales was regarded as part of England and some parts of Montgomeryshire were listed in Shropshire and visa versa.

The cheek of them    Hummmm I think the Welsh roots are showing.  Wales is not part of  England 

From what you have said, in the border country 'nationality' was where the heart was, and rightly so.   

Well I think my mother's is in Wales as that is where she chose to retire.  She does think of herself as English though    Confused lot us border born. 

I remember as a child walking just down the end of the road and suddenly you were in Wales 

I think I'll sort the ancestors by county or place of birth - Montgomeryshire is most definately Wales as far as our family is concerned but the Oswestry born tended to call themselves English with Welsh roots!

Thanks for all your help D ap D and Dave    Much appreciated

[davierj]

My mother in law was born in England and came to Wales at the age of 5 - no choice because her parents came.   She regarded herself as English although she had a noticeable Welsh accent.
When I used to call her 'the Welsh dragon' (being my mother in law it was obligatory) she objected , sometimes almost violently, but never to the dragon bit..............

Cheers Dave

[Lemmey]

When I used to call her 'the Welsh dragon' (being my mother in law it was obligatory) she objected , sometimes almost violently, but never to the dragon bit..............

Cheers Dave

 

Strangely enough in my early childhood I always wanted to be Welsh.  Maybe because I spent a lot of time with that side of the family.  I still feel the Welsh accent is familiar as I suppose a form of it would have been how I originally spoke.  Not any longer - my accent is as mongrel as the rest of me. 

[Gadget]

I was born just in Wales - 6 miles from Oswestry and 3 from Gobowen. Although Oswestry is in England, there's more Welsh spoken there than in many parts of Wales. The Registration district covers much of the border villages. It was also the market town (Wednesdays) for all the farming areas around.

It's history is fascinating - worth Googling to check it out.

Gadget

[polidor]

Hi all, i too, have noticed a slight tendency to move Oswestry about on some censuses according to the person born there!!!

One of my uncles ran a public house on the borders of Oswestry and i can remember staying there as a child and can vividly recall playing with a cousin and standing over a line in the road when one of the girls who helped in the pub came along and asked what we were doing " we've got one leg in Wales and one leg in England" we said.

Sorry about that folks but this thread brought back a memory