Gardiner/Gardner

[casalguidi]

Just to confuse things further I estimated Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner must have been born estimated 1886 because she is 20 when she marries in 1906.

I wouldn't worry about a couple of years discrepancy where ages upon marriage are concerned ................... that's not unusual at all due to the high proportion of illiteracy especially with travellers.  Also, it was quite common for girls to put their ages up a bit when marrying if they were quite young

Yes, I would say that Leman is Leamantinia Harriett but I wonder if she were the same child showing as baptised in 1887 instead of the expected 1888 - perhaps the original parish registers will confirm

The full birth, marriage, death indexes are available on a number of sites but currently free to view http://www.ancestry.co.uk

There are a number of baptisms and marriages http://www.familysearch.org but by no means complete.

I still think it's Lemmey Tayne

Best wishes

Casalguidi

[Lemmey]

I still think it's Lemmey Tayne

Best wishes

Casalguidi

OK Leman could be Lemmey Tayne Harriet who could have been born in 1888 and been married in 1906 at 18 fibbing to say she is 20. 

Couple of thoughts though - don't you have to show your birth certificate when you register your wedding? (they made me  or has it changed over the years)

Another thought - I had assumed Leman died or moved somewhere as she doesn't show on the 1901 census. 

Oh dear - now I've had verification on the fact she was born but I don't know which one of them is my great grandma. 

Thanks for all your help though - I would never have thought of Leamantinia as a possible name 

And to think to start with I thought her name was Emily.  How did they turn Leamantinia into Emily I wonder 

[Lemmey]

Sorry to be a pain but all searches I do on Ancestry.co.uk for Leamantinia Harriett GARDENER, or  Lementina  with all versions of Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener with or without the Harriett come back as no results.  The only think I can find is the marriage of Lemmey Payne 

Did you find the birth registration on there or somewhere else?  Although I must admit I was checking for deaths.

I do know whatever name she was born with one of them died as Emily Skilton in 1911.  I thought maybe I could find the death of Leman or Jane and clear the thing up that way.

Thanks 

edited to add I found the birth record by searching on Ancestry for the page etc. as you gave.  I found it.  I then tried doing it the other way round and put in her name and searched and it still gave me nil results 

[casalguidi]

Hi Lemmey

There are lots of other things you can check to see how Lemmey's name is listed which might help confirm:

As you say, Death indexes
Burial record
Headstone/Memorial
Notice of Death/Obituary in newspaper
Electoral registers (from 1918+)
Street directories (if she outlived her husband and became head of household)
Baptisms of her children

For most of these, it might require visits to the local studies archives/record office for the area(s) in which she lived after her marriage.

To search for BMD items 1911-1983 you will need to choose the Complete BMD Index ranges & Images 1837-1983 option http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx and view the indexes page by page as there are hardly any entries on the partial freebmd index post 1911.

No, I don't think you had to show your birth certificate when you married in those days or at least not many registrars/incumbants asked for it if you did. 

As regards to Lemmey becoming Emily, I can think of a few possible ideas.  Firstly, the way travellers speak isn't always clear to the non-travelling population so what they are saying could quite easily be mishead hence corrupted by a registrar etc..  Some years ago, a late great uncle of mine told me about the "gold needles" on his grandfather's caravan.   I really puzzled over these "gold needles" and asked him more than once to clarify - turned out he was saying "golden eagles"   I doubt the clerics came across many occurances of Lemontina/Limentani so unless it was spoken very clearly, quite easy to corrupt

Is there a possibility that the certificate you have could have been mistranscribed from the original register

Or maybe she just became known as Emily - some Emmas and Emilys are affectionately known as "Emmy" which isn't that far from "Lemmey" ie. Lemmey became Emmey   I don't know but something to think about perhaps

Best wishes

Casalguidi

[Lemmey]

I may send for the birth certificate of Leamantinia Harriett as you have been so kind as to find the details for me    Can find her full name on that presumably.

Also want to send for death certificate of Emily Skilton/Lemmey Skilton as I'm interested to know why she died so young 

Thanks for the tip on searching by pages.  Why didn't I think of that before!

I think you are right that she just became known as Emmy/Emily as it seems to have happened after she married. 

Unfortunately not able to take time to go to Croydon area at the moment plus wouldn't know where to start.  Isn't it rather built up round there now 

I'd like to trace all the children of Noah or at least Jane and Leman so I can be sure I have the right one.  Think I may have quite a job on my hands. 

[casalguidi]

Hi Lemmey

According to the index, the Emily H SKILTON who died in 1911 was aged 81 so, if the index if correct, I wouldn't have thought she is yours.  You might have quite a long trawl through the indexes to try and locate a death registration but it might be quite useful to point you in the direction of the other resources mentioned.

I'm not that familiar with the Croydon area but I would imagine that it is rather built up now, yes.  Quite a lot of travellers and their families appear to have settled in that area.

Best wishes

Casalguidi

[Lemmey]

Hi Lemmey

According to the index, the Emily H SKILTON who died in 1911 was aged 81 so, if the index if correct, I wouldn't have thought she is yours. 

Oh rats.  How did I miss noticing that bit.  You are dead right (where's the blushing smiley).  I think I'll give free BDM a miss and stick to trawling Ancestry.

Drawing board - back to    Will have a good trawl when I have time.  I can imagine this is going to be interesting as I'm not sure of the year or first name.  However I do know she apparently died young so that has to limit it a bit (she says optimistically)

Thanks 

[Lemmey]

There is a "Lenny" Harriet GARDNER baptised Carshalton Surrey 5 Feb 1887 dau of Noah and Elizabeth

This doesn't quite fit with a registration of birth for a Leamantinia Harriett GARDENER registered in the March quarter of 1888 Epsom Surrey ref. 2a 11

I wonder if these could be the same person ................ ie a mistranscription on the date from the baptism register

Possible siblings Elizabeth 28 Mar 1880, Jane 28 Dec 1884 also baptised Carshalton

Casalguidi

Hi Casalguidi

Found on 1881 Census which ties in with your post above.

Noah Gardner, 26 (age is 4 yrs out according to other census info but that seems to be nothing)
Elizabeth Gardner, 25 wife
Adelaide Gardner, 2
Elizabeth, 14 months

Live at 22 Levitts Rents, The Wrythe, Carshalton, Surrey
Next door live the Dellaways.

Looks like I may have found Noah again    Elizabeth looks like being the daughter of Noah and Elizabeth rather than Noah and Clara which ties in with the info you found above.

And I wonder if Lemmy therefore had the same mother - Elizabeth.  Even though she lived with Noah and Clara when young.

[casalguidi]

Hi Lemmey

Yes I agree, it certainly does look like the same family.  According to the baptism record (if it has been transcribed correctly), "Lemmy's" mother was Elizabeth so perhaps Noah married more than once or perhaps Clara is really Elizabeth even - no doubt something you'll sort out in time

I wouldn't be surprised if those DELLAWAYS turn out to be related somehow - likewise some of the families that were encamped with the GARDINERS in 1901 - travelling families often congregated in large extended families even if only related by marriage somehow.

Casalguidi