Sir William Hughes

[Teely]

I have recently been given (by a 2nd cousin) a studio photograph taken by Herbert Watkins & Haigh of Regent Street, London allegedly of a Sir William Hughes, a (catholic) church organist in London, probably in the late 19C. Some of my elderly relatives (90+) have referred to him before but I didn't really believe them because they had no other details. If true he would have been my great grandfather's brother. I can't find anything about this man - no starting point. I can't find anything in Debrett's, Burke's Peerage etc.) I've not been able to trace any studio records of the photographer (George Herbert Watkins) although some of his portraits are in the National Portrait Gallery collection.

Can anyone suggest any ways I can proceed with so little to go on?

[Valda]

Nothing in The Times online index either.

Your starting point would be your known family history and then tracking back researching the Hughes line through censuses in particular.

If you put details of the Hughes family that you know (elderly relatives in their 90s should be able to get your line back before the 1901 census) then people will do census look ups for you to try and help flesh the line out and see if a William Hughes appears. Since Hughes is obviously a relatively common surname and you are interested in London, you do need to give specific details to help someone do a look up for you.

Regards

Valda

[Teely]

Thanks for looking. The problem is that I don't have any more details at all about this mystery person. My 94 year old relative has no more details either - just the name and the fact that he was an organist in London. She claims that a priest in the 1930's checked for her and told her she was right! That's all the information I have about him apart from the claim that he is the brother of my great grandfather, Peter Hughes (who was killed in the Wood Pit explosion in Haydock in 1878) who was also a church organist.

I think the best route may be through the photographer's studio as it seems to be a well established one but I'm not sure where to look for any existing records.

[Dave Francis]

Hi Teely

If Sir William was indeed the brother of your g-grandfather Peter Hughes we may be able to track him down via Peter - i.e. they should appear together in at least one Census!

So ... you mentioned that Peter died in 1878.  How old was he?  Do you know anything about his parents, where he was born and son on?

Dave

[Valda]

This would be Peter's death registration - Warrington civil registration district includes Haydock.

Deaths Sep 1878
HUGHES  Peter  37  Warrington  8c 99

So Peter would have been born circa 1841/2

In Haydock on the 1871 census you have this Peter.

RG10 3900 folio 114
Old Fold Haydock  Lancashire   
Joseph Hughes 77  Haydock, Lancashire,  Head  Married  Labourer
Lydia Hughes 78  Haydock, Lancashire,  Wife  Married
Peter Hughes 29 Haydock, Lancashire, Grandson  Coal miner

1861 census RG9 2788 folio 70
Old Fold Row Haydock  Lancashire   
Joseph Hughs 65  Haydock, Cumberland, Head  Married Agricultural Labourer
Lydia Hughs  67 Haydock, Lancashire,  Wife  Married
William Hughs  31  Haydock, Lancashire, Son Coal Miner
Joseph Hughs 28  Haydock, Lancashire,  Son Coal Miner
Peter Hughs  19 Haydock, Lancashire,  Son  Coal Miner

1851 census HO107 2202 folio 50
Old Fold Haydock  Lancashire 
Joseph Hughes Lydia 34  Haydock, Lancashire, Head  Married Agricultural Labourer
Lydia Hughes 35 Haydock, Lancashire, Wife Married
William Hughes 21 Haydock, Lancashire,  Son Coal Labourer
Joseph Hughes 18 Haydock, Lancashire,  Son Coal Labourer
Peter Hughes  9  Haydock, Lancashire,  Grandson  Scholar
James Hughes  9  Haydock, Lancashire, Grandson  Errand Boy
plus 2 lodgers

Births Sep 1841
HUGHES  James    Warrington  20 769?   
HUGHES  Peter     Warrington  20 765

So strong evidence that Peter had a twin called James, but none so far that he had a brother called William, but he did have an uncle of that name (on the 1901 census he seems to have been a casual pauper in Pontefract Union Workhouse). You would need to know Peter's parents' names from his birth certificate to track them in Haydock to see whether, though Peter lived with his grandparents, there were any other siblings for Peter living with his parents (if they were still alive and their deaths were  not the reason Peter and James were living with their grandparents)

Possible deaths for James

Deaths Mar 1852
Hughes  James    Warrington  8c 67   
Deaths Sep 1855
Hughes  James     Warrington  8c 6[9_]

1841 census HO107 524/8 folio 33 page 27
Borded Barne Haydock  Lancashire   
Joseph Hughes 40  Lancashire Collier
Lydia Hughes 45  Lancashire   
Betty Hughes 25  Lancashire,
Ann Hughes 20  Lancashire
Ellen Hughes 15  Lancashire
Milfred Hughes 13  Lancashire
William Hughes 11  Lancashire
Joseph Hughes 8  Lancashire

From the IGI
JOSEPH HUGHS 
LYDIA THOMASON 
Marriage:  04 OCT 1815   Winwick, Lancashire
 
I've followed all William Hughes born Haydock around the time of Peter on later censuses and they appear to be coalminers.

Peter's name appears here

http://www.dmm2.org.uk/uknames/u1878-02.htm

in the list of those killed

Date:   7th June 1878
Colliery:   Haydock, Wood Pit
Cause:   Explosion of firedamp caused by roof fall
Lives Lost:   189

This website is Ian Winstanley's who apparently has written a book on the Haydock disaster

http://www.cmhrc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/igw.htm

it is called

'Weep Mothers Weep', the story of the Wood Pit disaster

Further information

http://dmnw26769.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/collieries/mstc.htm

To follow Peter's descendants on the 1881-1901 census you would have to tell us Peter's wife's name and children, though this family is a possibility on the 1881 census.

RG11 3788 folio 119
Old Went Haydock  Lancashire   
Alice Hughes 40 Haydock, Lancashire, Head  Widow Domestic Charwoman
Mary Hughes 8 Haydock, Lancashire,  Daughter 
Elizabeth Hughes 7 Haydock, Lancashire, Daughter 
William Hughes 5 Haydock, Lancashire, Son 
Winifred Hughes 3 Haydock, Lancashire, Daughter
Peter Hughes 2 Haydock, Lancashire,  Son 

If this was the couple the only marriage that fits is this one.

Marriages Dec 1871
Hughes  Peter     Prescott  8b 1097   
Tyrer  Alice     Prescott  8b 1097

Regards

Valda

[Teely]

Thank you so much for your assistance. I'm amazed at how quickly you have gathered information which took me weeks to collect.
The 1881 census family you mention are indeed my great grandmother, my grandmother Winifred and her brother and sisters. Peter Hughes aged 30 did marry Alice Tyrer on November 15th, 1871 in Our Lady's Church, Blackbrook (Blackbrook Chapel, Parr in the registry office records in Prescot). The civil registration was in Prescot. Peter's father was not named and the registrar told me that this meant he was illegitimate although in the church marriage book his father was given as Thomas Hughes! This does fit in with the Joseph and Lydia Hughes family which you found in the 1841 census because Betty (Elizabeth) gave birth to a son, Peter, on July 2nd, 1841 who was baptised in Our Lady's Church, Blackbrook on July 11th, 1841. His father was given as Thomas Hughes but the Hughes had a line drawn through it and Fisher written above it in the same handwriting. The official birth certificate does not name the father. The couple had had a daughter, Mary, born October 6th, 1839, baptised October 13th, 1839. Thomas Fisher was also a sponsor to 2 infants in 1849 and 1850 in thesame church but I can't find him in any of the census returns around this time.
Joseph and Lydia also had a son called Peter who was born on July 21st, 1839 and baptised on August 4th, 1839. I've not found any other mention of him.
I think James was Peter's cousin, not his twin, because his mother was Jane Hughes and he was born on September 1st, 1841 and baptised on September 12th, 1841 at Our Lady's, Blackbrook.

I was confident that Elizabeth Hughes' son Peter must be the Peter Hughes who married Alice Tyrer despite my 94 year old relative insisting that Peter came from Mold and spoke Welsh (she also thought his mother was a Fisher). She is totally convinced she is right, as she is about Sir William Hughes, the brother. On the information I had found I had always dismissed these claims so I was stunned to receive the photograph of Sir William Hughes which had been in the family all this time and is in excellent condition. The only place I can see William fitting into the story is as another illegitimate child of Elizabeth Hughes but born elsewhere! This is why I am anxious to trace him.

Peter Hughes as a 9 year old was a scholar, unlike cousin James who was an errand boy. I have a studio photograph of him as a young adult. He owned a lovely pocket watch which he had on him in the pit explosion. The watch is still in the family and which Ian Winstanley photographed for his second book on the disaster. He owned a harmonium and sheet music which I saw as a child and yet he was a coal miner!

Another cousin of mine says that he had been told that Peter was illegitimate and his father had wanted to set him up in business as a pub landlord but he refused.

There was a Thomas Fisher born in Burtonwood and living in Widnes in 1881 who was a grocer and born in 1815. This would make him a suitable age to have been Peter's father. An aunty (now dead) told me that her mother and her aunty (Peter's daughters) sometimes visited their grandfather in Widnes when they were young but they were stopped from going there. She didn't know anything else. (I was told this long before I had started my research)

I can't find anything at all about this Thomas Fisher in earlier years so I'm not able to link the 2.

Sorry to write so much but you've been so helpful I wanted to giveyou the full story as I know it. Everything is certain back to Peter Hughes marrying Alice Tyrer but I'm still not sure I've got the right Peter Hughes before that.

Thanks again,
Cecilia

[Valda]

The census index to which I have access to gives only that Peter Hughes as a possible candidate living in Haydock on the earlier censuses.
1871 there are 5 Peter Hughes in Haydock but the other birthdates are 1829 and 1834 (the latter born Irleland) and 1860 and 1870. None born Haydock and living away from Haydock. The 1861 and 1851 censuses do not produce any further candidates - just in case anyone had been misindexed on one census.

For it to be any other Peter than he would have to be living under another surname on the earlier censuses.
No Peter Hughes born circa 1842 Haydock on any census after 1871.
That puts up a very strong case for the Peter Hughes grandson of Lydia and Joseph.

I can see no Elizabeth (Eliza) Hughes or Fisher either born Haydock or living in Haydock on the 1851 census with a birth within 5 years of circa 1816. Ditto Betty and Lizzie.

I tracked back the Thomas Fisher of Widnes on the 1881 census, through the 1871 and 1861 censuses to him in Parr in 1851.

1851 census HO107 2195 folio 450
Parr Flat Parr  Lancashire   
Thomas Fisher 35 Burtonwood, Lancashire,  Head Married Labourer at Colliery
Hannah Fisher 34  Burtonwood, Lancashire, Wife Married Grocer
Mary Jane Fisher  5  Parr, Lancashire, Daughter   
Hannah Fisher 4  Parr, Lancashire, Daughter   
Thomas Fisher 2  Parr, Lancashire, Son
Phebe Fisher  1 infant  Parr, Lancashire, Daughter   

The original business appears to have been his first wife's. The family had moved to Widnes by 1861. Parr is in Prescott registration district. I can't see him in 1841 - there are 15 Thomas Fishers in Lancashire with a birth year within 5 years of circa 1815. I believe Burtonwood is somewhere near Warrington?

Regards

Valda

[victorianIMAGEcollection]

Hi, Watkins & Haigh had a studio at 213 Regent Street in 1874 only.  I have 2 cdv actually dated 1874 in the collection.

Herbert Watkins had a studio on his own at 215 Regent Street up to 1873.

By 1875 213 Regent Street was run by Edward Haigh alone. (Source Directory of London Photographers). This is pretty precise dating.  Ron Cosens

[Teely]

Thanks very much for the information. It's amazing that you have been able to narrow the date down so precisely.

The photograph is in very good condition and is fixed onto a card which measures about 4"x2.5"

The front has "HERBERT WATKINS & HAIGH" "COPYRIGHT" printed at the bottom and the back has a very decorative panel with the studio details (213 Regent Street etc.)  plus additional details of "A Special Studio for equestrian and instantaneous photography"

The name and details of the sitter are handwritten by a family member in pencil "Sir William Hughes Church organist in London. My grandfather's brother"

The photograph bears a likeness to Peter Hughes. I have a studio portrait of him taken at E. A. G. Peters, Central Photographic Institution, Nelson Chambers, 9, Paradise Street, Liverpool

I wondered if there may be any chance of the existence of studio records listing details of the sitters?