MORFEY born in Rye or Ripe, Sussex

[Katie x]

Hello LesleyY

I have sent you a PM today, not sure if you have received this?

Kind regards

Katie X

[Foad Family Kent]

I wonder if you came to a conclusion with this line.
I too share this line and give you some help
Suzannah

[Southy]

I'm looking for information on the Thomas Frederick Penfold b1901 mentioned on this site.  Believe he may have had a partner and children (not married) in 1928-1930 around Gillingham and Nonington area but need to prove this.

Dennis

[Southy]

How about this as a possible birth for Ellen Elizabeth - not a Morfey but Morley

Births Dec 1874   
~~~~~~~~
MORLEY  Ellen Elizabeth     Eastry  2a 854

Eastry doesn't cover Rye where the census says she is from and 4 years younger

Dennis

[lesleyY]

Ellen Elizabeth Morley died Q2 1878 aged 3 in Eastry RD, so she must be a Morley not a Morfey.

With regard to your request for information on Thomas Frederick Penfold's kids: Do you have a name for any of them?

Possibly there could be a baptism record in the local area, however c.1930s records are often still stored at the local church, though some parishes will have forwarded their baptism books to Maidstone archives.

When TFP died in 1991 did he leave a will? If so that might specifically name his children as beneficiaries.

If it is a case of a rumoured liason, and the children likely to have been registered with their mother's name but not the father's, then you have a truly difficult task determining who the kids were, without the mother's name.

Perhaps TFP and partner were witnesses to someone elses wedding, or registered a business together, or there might have been some legal case involving both that would give you clues to work with.

Was TFP already married? Did his wife file for divorce naming the 'other woman' in the case as co-respondent?

If the child/children were registered with surname Penfold and the registrations also list mother's maiden name, then you could by process of elimination check each and every child with surname Penfold with birth registered in the area, then cross check for a marriage between the Penfold and mother's maiden name. Any with a marriage before the birth you can eliminate, then whittle the list down to as few as possible that way, and order the certificates for those that are still possibilities. Then check for their own marriages, order those certificates and see if the father is named on the marriage certs. It will be an expensive exercise, but that depends on how desperate you are to find the missing kids.

[Southy]

Hi Lesley

I do have the birth certificates for the children and I already have the ancestry/history of the mother Phyllis Lawrence (she married a Stephen Saunter b circ 1902 Ticehurst) before leaving him to take up and have children with TFP/FTP.  The birth certs list mother under Penfold formerly Lawrence (not mentioning Saunter)  Name of father in oder of birth cert dates i) Frederick Penfold ii) Frederick Thomas Penfold iii) Thomas Frederick Penfold.  Fathers occupation farm labourer.  I can find no marriage between Lawrence/Saunter and Penfold.  The children were put into care under the age of 4 so they did/do not have any details of the father. 

I am currently wondering whether the Saunter connection to Thomas Frederick Penfold 1901 may be significant in that this may be how they met?

I also have some addresses from the birth certs which may help if someone has details of other Penfold addresses 1925-1930.  Part of the addresses: Speke's Bottom, Gillingham; Star Lane, Gillingham; Gooseberry Hall, Nonington, Eythrone.

Dennis

[lesleyY]

Did you order the birth cert for 1917 Frederick J Penfold born in Croydon, mother's maiden name Lawrence?
I wonder if Phyllis knew TFP BEFORE she married Stephen Saunter.

Had child No.1 Frederick J.    [with TFP perhaps)
Married Stephen and had 4 children with him.

Vera Vivienne Rhoda Saunter b.1922 Cranbrook, she married Cyril Seymour Huggett - they lived in Kent.
Her story is on the BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/40/a2989740.shtml

Stanley Stephen Saunter b.25 May 1923 Cranbrook d.Dec 1998 Mansfield Notts, he was married.

Peggy Vivan Saunter b.10 Jul 1924 East Ashford d. Feb 2004 Staffordshire, she married Alexr Rankin in 1943.

Rudolph F P Saunter b.1927 East Ashford, and I can't find any sign of him. He was very young, and perhaps also adopted out with a name change in the process.

Then Phyllis gets back with TFP and 3 more children arrive in quick succession, bringing the total to 8.
Quite a handful, and if TFP then jumped ship or either was taken ill for example then that might explain why the little ones were placed for adoption.
It's just a theory.

Have you contacted any of the children of the older offspring of Phyllis, incase their parent told them how come the family ended up split, or indeed if they know anything about TFP?

Frederick J Penfold would have been a teenager when the break up was taking place, Vera would have been approaching 10.

[Southy]

Hi Lesley

I have details of the Saunter family.  Phyllis pregnant with Rudolph when she took up with Penfold - Rudolph alive but knows nothing about his parents as he was put in care along with the three children Phyllis had with Penfold.  All three Penfold children now dead, but by all accounts also knew nothing.  I am in touch with one of the children she had with the person she went to when she left Penfold but they knew nothing of her past children/marriages/liaisons - this Penfold is a mystery and difficult to trace because of reversing his name on the only evidence we have and no age to work to.  Not sure if any records would be available of workers in Kent in 1928-1930 - as he was a farm labourer he may have been cash in hand - if records are available where would the be kept?  There are the addresses given on the birth certs, might these be workers cottages rented out?  Again problem of finding records after such a time.

Dennis

[lesleyY]

Yes Farm laboureres were often allocated cottages tied to the farms they worked on. Perhaps there is a remote chance that one of those farms may have kept details of employees from the 1920's/1930's. Unlikely, but not impossible.

At a guess the best chances of identifying him will be the social services records surrounding the adoptions, and possibly Wills of other family memebers if there were any around that time. Perhaps TFP's parents or grand parents left a will which identifies by name their descendants.

I really son't know what else to suggest at this time. More should become available when the 100 years has passed since the adoptions.