NEEDLES

[Trees]

3 of the children were baptised Cof E  Elizabeth should be 1793 Londonderry (good gues toni*  I know John was serving in Ireland in Mar qtr 1819 he was in Portobello Barracks, Dublin.I think that was where he met Elizabeth he was back in Canturbury in June qtr 1819
He is sometimes NEEDLE and other times NEADLE in the Army records The marriage is not in the chaplins reports I've had a good look in Kew he was in Ireland from 1816 mainly at Dundalk
No idea of her maiden name
H  Thanks for the help

[toni*]

do the army records give a next of kin and / or an address  ?

added
 no they shouldn't do that early
have you tried muster rolls?
have you got his discharge papers?

what regt was he with?

[Trees]

Yes I have the muster rolls no mention of a wife
14th light Dragoons
Discharge papers
He enlisted in Coventry on 10th March 1811 at the age of 22 years for Unlimited Service. He was discharged at Brighton Barracks on 20 March 1821 after Ten Years and 74 Days of service ‘in consequence of Chronic Catarrh followed by Haemoptoe & originating in a cold while on Duty at Richmond last October he is unfit for further service, his right forearm was broken by a Horse on Duty at Regiment’. His conduct was good. When he was discharged he was described as being 'about Thirty two Years of Age, is five Feet Seven Inches in height, Light Hair, Hazel Eyes, Fair Complexion, and by Trade or Occupation a Labourer'

No mention of a wife
He died 1831 buried by the parish I have seen the entry in the poor law accounts

They had 4 daughters born in Tadmarton (the youngest was my 2xGrt Gran the oldest Elizabeth was born between 1816 -1821 not in oxfordshire but not Ireland either the only sighting of her is the 1841 census HO107/ 875/18 fo 9 p11

Mary bap in Tadmarton 1825 nothing else found not on the 41
Pheobe bap all the censuses m to Henry GIBBONS

Sarah all the censuses she was bapt Tadmarton m William Hall in Edgbaston

Elizabeth had an "extra" child after John died Hannah COX Needle born 1834 bap Tadmarton
1834 8 Jun   Hannah Cox illegitimate d Elizabeth NEEDLE widow of Tadmarton

Elizabeth appears in the poorlaw accounts recieving help for the daughters and being paid for nursing sick villagers she died 1873

I think I have covered every record I could get my hands on just can't find a marriage so cant take that line back any further If you can help find her it would be wonderful
H.

[toni*]

thinking out loud and more questions than answers

Elizabeth on the census where did she give as her p.o.b?

what was Mr Needles name?

anyway he was born in Ireland (Londonderry) circa 1789 sometime between 1789 & 1811 he travelled to England (no passenger lists / immigration records needed then) and ended up in Coventry
he served for 10 years and 74 days - does it give the places he served?
to marry whilst in the army he would have had to gain permission from his senior officers because the women then would have to live in the married quarters which actually was the same room as the boys but separated via a sheet on a rail (like round a hospital bed) the woman would be expected to pitch in with the cleaning, washing cooking and nursing, anyway it seems unlikely he married whilst in service so he was discharged on 20 March 1821 - where was he discharged too? any ideas ?
his occupation was a labourer, rather general but where could he have been labouring ?

Elizabeth jnr as born betwixt 1816 & 1821 presumably this is her age from the census but we know that he was serving until March 1821 so it is more probable she was born 1821 / 1822
having come out of the army and having a lack of contact with women he was probably feeling the need for a bit of womanly affection and met Elizabeth and lo and behold she feel pregnant with Elizabeth jnr.
up until the m,id 18th c a woman was known to consent to sex after a promise of marriage as common law ruled that verbal promise should be legally binding thus we have the common law wife.

so Elizabeth was not born in Ireland or Oxfordshire but could she have been born in Warwickshire i.e. Coventry?

it would appear that he was the breadwinner, there was a farming crisis circa the time he died maybe he was labouring on some farm.  and when he died Elizabeth could no longer afford to provide for her family so the parish buried him and provided for her and the children - have you seen the poor law records for Tadmarton does it say how many children she claimed for?
she would have found it difficult to find employment with young children to look after.

are there quite big gaps between the childrens birth?

[toni*]

just realised that it was Elizabeth b. Londonderry not Mr Needles and her first child was born 1816-1821 although Elizabeth jnr used the name Needles she may have been from a previous marriage 30 was a bit long in the tooth for a first marriage for a woman

[Trees]

Careful toni* I was 33 getting wed for the one and only tome  don't forget he was in the forces may have been long distance courting before they married or as we don't have the marriage yet did they marry and were separated by his service so it wasn't ti; later the first child was born it would be great to find what happened to Elizabeth Jnr I only have her on the 1841 if she was on a later census we would know where she was born and have a more accurate dob for her
Elizabeth the mother is on the 41,51 ,61 and 71 and died age 80 in 1873 she is from Lononderry consistently
i have seen poor law accounts for her but it gives the amount for children not numbered and varies from month to month It looks like she looked after other children from the village as well as her own so it isn't clear how many at a time were her's
Her daughters don't really  have any big gaps??? 1816-1821 i think likely at the top end say 1821 I wonder did he meet he when he was convalescing from the accident that lead to his discharge)
1825,1827, 1829 then he died 1831 and she had the base child much later 1834. So the family children are not so far apart
H

[toni*]

OK, 30 was long in the tooth for a first marriage back then, the women were either kept or had to go out and keep themselves

if they married before service it would explain there being no children whilst he was in service but she should be mentioned in the muster rolls at least as Mrs Needles and 'kept' by the army in some form unless the marriage wasnt recognised by the army i.e. he asked for permission but didnt gain it.

what was his forename (will help me when looking for Elizabeth birth and a marriage) 


ps where are they in 1841? Tadmarton ?

[toni*]

i cant see any of teh children on the census or find them in 1841 if you have the ref. it would be helpful

also Elizabeth b. 1816-1821 shows up on 1841 but then disappears presumably she married or died or is mistranscribed

ditto Mary b. 1825

Pheobe b. ? marries dies etc. you have details
Sarah b. ? do.

just to help locate them in 1841 and possible marriages later 

[Trees]

Sorry to be do long answering toni8
1841 Tadmarton HO107/ 875/18 fo 9 p11
Elizabeth with Elizabeth jnr phobey strange spelling Sarah and hannah
John had died 1831 he was born 1787
1851 HO107/1733 fo275 p 8
Elizabeth on her own in Tadmarton
1861 RG9/ 919 fo 94 p54
1871 RG10/1466 fo136 p 6
Elizabeth born between 1816-1821 only on the 1841 census
Mary bap Tadmarton 17 Ap 1825 nothing else known
Pheobe bap 29 Apr 1827 Tad. m 1850 Henry Gibbons Daventry Northampton
they had Sarah Ann 1852 Byfield Northamptonshire the family is on thecensuses from 51 -1901
Sarah m William HALL 15 Oct 1849 Edgbaston and died 16 Apr 1903 Birmingham they had 8 children and I have them all on all the censuses from 1851

John was bap in tadmarton 9 Dec 1787 and buried there 29 May 1831 He was the son of James and Mary nee Moreby They had 9 ch in all i have three marriages with ch as well as John's
They all seem to stay in the Banbury area
Hope that helps its got me stumped
Elizabeth is mentioned a lot in the poor law acounts she seems to be the chosen xhild minder for pauper children in thevillage and also tens or nurses the sick paupers too No mention in the bastardy bonds for her last child but the baptism register has:
1834 8 Jun   Hannah Cox illegitimate d Elizabeth NEEDLE widow of Tadmarton
And there is a payment to a lady from the poor relief for attending the widow Needle at the time of Hannah's birth. She recives regular payments for "children"
H