I cant find her mother - Lincolnshire

[JAP]

Hi Valda,

Naturally, as I'm sure you realize, I accept and fully understand everything you say.

The only point I'm trying to make is that we should not dismiss a possibility simply because it is rare or very unlikely - especially given the various very loose ends which haven't yet been (and may never be) tied up.  Incidentally, I don't think that Dorothy ROBINSON was placed into the workhouse system by the ROBINSON family - Claire advised that Dorothy ROBINSON was imprisoned for two weeks for theft of a shawl followed by (part of the punishment?) 3-5 years in the West Riding House of Refuge.

As I understand it, Geoff E looked at the Gainsborough baptismal register and didn't (as I understand what he wrote) find a Dorothy HOSTHEAD or a Dorothy ROBINSON (he did find Ellen HOSTHEAD).  He said he was off on holiday so perhaps on his return he will be able and willing to search out more information.

Regards,

JAP
PS: I am only too well aware - to my chagrin - of how common the name ROBINSON is!  If anyone can find the origins of my Gggpa James Christie ROBINSON who married in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia in 1852 they will earn my undying gratitude.  On birth certs of his children, James described himself as born in Exeter ca 1832 - but who knows.  He is thought to have been a mariner and to have come to Australia ca 1850 - but who knows.  His death has not been found.

[Valda]

This is what Geoff says about his sources for Gainsborough baptisms

Her baptism does not appear on the IGI but is on the BIVRI2 disks.  I can't see a marriage for her.

From Phillimores' Atlas and index of parish registers, coverage on the IGI appears to stop in 1835. On the BVRI disks I hold (second edition) though coverage of the marriage register goes further (1837-1896), for baptisms it is only 1813-1834. The coverage on the BVRI is of All Saints Gainsborough the original parish. However the National Burial index, besides All Saints also has coverage of Holy Trinity parish register from 1844 onwards.

'In 1842, there were five non-Anglican chapels and meeting houses in the township of Gainsborough. The Wesleyan Methodists built one in 1804, the Primitive Methodists in 1838. Other chapels included the Independents, Baptists and the Society of Friends.'

Apparently the Congregational chapel was built there in 1602.

Though anything is possible I always think it is better to explore the more likely before moving to the less likely. The absence of the more likely at this stage does not make the less likely any more likely becvause of that. Not finding something doesn't mean it is not there - merely we have not found it and at this point there is still one major source left to search.

If the birth or births, since there may have been siblings, has not shown in the civil registration, it does not mean it won't show in the baptismal register/s where there is still a chance a father might be named, or a second middle name might be given, which was never used again but will give us further clues. If there is a search of the Gainsborough baptismal registers it also gives the opportunity to look at Dorothy Hosthead's baptism as well, since again her father might be named. That might either confirm a connection or dismiss it.

I just think before exploring more unlikely possibilities through internet sources it is sensible to research the more straight forward option of the parish registers and keep focussed at this point on the possibility that Dorothy Robinson was born legitimately, or if she wasn't her parents married soon after. Otherwise on Frederick's second marriage we have to believe he lied when he said he was a widower, because he certainly didn't marry Dorothy Hosthead's mother which I originally hoped would be the case when we discovered her mother's name from her birth certificate and could therefore find her subsequent marriage. Yes it is possible Frederick married a woman who was not Dorothy's mother but why complicate it any further if as yet that is still a possibility.

Regards

Valda

[JAP]

Hi Claire, yours is an interesting puzzle – but I’m frustrated by not having access to census records! Especially the 1851 census.
Of the known members of the ROBINSON family (presumed children of Joseph ROBINSON and Mary GUEST), the following have been found in 1851 as far as I am aware – Anne (b Rotherham 1805), Joseph (b Gainsborough ca 1816) and Ellen (b Gainsborough ca 1831).
Thomas (b Gainsborough ca 1813) probably died in 1850.
Still missing in 1851 are (at least) William (b Gainsborough ca 1818 – what are taken to be William’s wife Rebecca and daughter Clara are living with Anne and Ellen), and Frederick George (b Gainsborough ca 1821).
And Fred’s daughter Dorothy (b Gainsborough ca 1845) – unless, of course, she has already been found under another name.

It would be particularly good to find in the 1851 census the bride and groom from that tantalising 1849 marriage in Doncaster of a Frederick George ROBINSON with Sarah Ann BERRY the only other name on the page in FreeBMD.  If they could be found (anywhere!) it would be a cheaper method of getting more information than buying the marriage certificate - which might be a last resort.

Searching might need to be creative – I recall that katherinem found Frederick G. ROBINSON in 1871 but mentioned that, in Ancestry, his name had been transcribed as ROBERSON.   

I am in Australia so my mind automatically goes to Internet sources and to films of church registers which can be ordered in to LDS FHCs - which is why I mentioned that possibility.
So Claire, if you are in a position to look at Gainsborough church registers yourself, or if someone else can do so for you, that will be great but, if not, perhaps the LDS films would be worth pursuing.

For Gainsborough in the relevant time period, the FHL Library seems to have not a bad coverage (there are also earlier and later ones) - including the following:
*  Parish registers for All Saints Church, Gainsborough, 1564-1948 / Church of England. All Saints Church (Gainsborough, Lincolnshire) 
*  Parish registers, 1844-1973 / Church of England. Holy Trinity Church (Gainsborough, Lincolnshire) 
*  Church records for Gainsborough and Gainsborough Circuit, 1838-1968 / Wesleyan Methodist Church (Bridge Road, Gainsborough, Lincolnshire)
Includes entries for places outside of Gainsborough that are in the Gainsborough Circuit, including, Torksey, Willoughton, Upton, Blyton, Knaith, Marton, East Stockwith, Stow, Sturton, Saundby, Misterton, Sturgate, Willingham, Worksop, Kexby, Retford, Somerby, Brampton, Heapham, Bole, West Burton, Walkeringham, Scotter, Saxilby
*  Church records for Primitive Methodist Church, Gainsborough Circuit, 1843-1935 / Primitive Methodist Church. Gainsborough Circuit (Lincolnshire).  (Baptisms 1843-1945)
Includes entries for places outside of Gainsborough that are in the Gainsborough Circuit, including, Sturgate, East Stockwith, Misterton, Kirton in Lindsey, Gringley on the Hill (Nottingham), Beckingham (Nottingham), Heapham, Springthorpe, Somerby, Marton, Morton, Kexby, Torksey, West Stockwith (Nottingham), Birmingham (Warwick), Retford, Hull (York), Walkeringham (Nottingham), Corringham, Willoughton, Sheffield (York), Bardney, Brampton, Upton, Horncastle, Aisby, Pelham, Leeds (York), London, Lincoln (city), Heckdyke, Willingham, Ingleby, Haxey, Saundby, Hartlepool (Durham), Grantham, Ollerton (Nottingham), North Wheatley (Nottingham), and Scunthorpe. 
*  Church records for Wesleyan-Methodist Chapel, Misterton, 1844-1968 / Wesleyan Methodist Chapel (Misterton, Nottinghamshire).
*  Record of members, 1843-1922 / Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Sheffield Conference (Yorkshire)

Hi Valda, I guess we’ll have to agree to have our own interpretations of the application of Occam’s Razor in this case    I’m keeping an open mind.

I take it that Geoff E was using more than one source for baptisms.

In one post Geoff referred to a baptism register saying “I coudn't see Dot in the baptism register ... Ellen (dau of Wm and Ellen HOSTHEAD) was born and bap 29th Jan” (he didn’t spell out that this was in 1846 i.e. was the Ellen who is recorded on FreeBMD in Mar qtr 1846 as HOSTKEAD; I note that there is also an Ellen HOSTHEAD – perhaps also a dau of Wm & Ellen? – born Mar qtr 1840 and death of an Eleanor HOSTHEAD Mar qtr 1842).

In a later post, referring to Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD (bap 1823), he referred to the BIVRI2 saying “Her baptism does not appear on the IGI but is on the BIVRI2 disks.  I can’t find a marriage for her.”

Just for completeness (though, of course, the HOSTHEADs might be a complete red herring) ...   You indicated earlier that Jane Popple (bap 1827), Susanna (bap 1828), William (bap 1830), and Henry (bap 1835) do appear in the IGI (which goes to 1835 though it doesn't seem to include Frances Elizabeth bap 1823).
Geoff mentioned that William & Ellen had several children (he didn’t name them) including two with middle name Pepple/Popple (name of the other one?) so presumably there was at least one we don't know about.  We also know from the 1851 census about Elijah (his birth as Elijah Philipson HOSTHEAD Mar qtr 1838 is on FreeBMD) and Ellen (her birth being recorded as HOSTKEAD Mar qtr 1846 on FreeBMD).

Regards,

JAP
 

[katherinem]

Just to let you know that some marriage entries for Doncaster are now on www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk, and the marriage in 1849 is on there, which confirms that a Frederick G Robinson married Sarah A Berry at Doncaster Register Office.

Regards, Kath

P.S.  I don't know if you are aware, that Doncaster and Rotherham (Masborough) are approx 12 miles apart, so I think it is feasible that this is your Frederick.

[Geoff E]

I can offer these baptisms:-

WILLIAM HOSTHEAD Christening: 03 JUL 1830 Gainsborough, Lincoln, England
JANE POPPLE HOSTHEAD  Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Gainsborough, Lincoln, England

from the IGI^^^

Frances Elizabeth 12 July 1823
William Pepple 18 June 1825
Jane Popple (as above)
and William (as above)

from BIVRI2 ^^^

A burial
28 March 1842 ... Sarah HOSTHEAD (2)

It may be of slight interest to find the baptism of a George Popple OSTEAD at Broughton, Lincs, the last of the 9 children John and Elizabeth OSTEAD had baptised there 1814-37.

[JAP]

Hi Geoff E, the HOSTHEADs might, of course, be a total red herring.

The puzzle of Claire's Dorothy ROBINSON (said in censuses to have been born ca 1846 in Gainsborough, and said on her marriage certificate to be the daughter of Frederick George ROBINSON) still remains.  The first time that Claire's Dorothy ROBINSON turns up is in 1859 when she was tried for stealing a shawl - at that time she was living with Fred's sister Ellen BROOMHEAD in Masborough.

I guess that the only reason the HOSTHEADs are being discussed at all is because a baby called Dorothy was born in Gainsborough in 1846 to an unmarried Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD - and it was thought that she just might be the same person as Claire's Dorothy ROBINSON.  But nothing at all has been found to tie Dorothy HOSTHEAD (mistranscribed on FreeBMD as HOSTIRED) to Claire's Dorothy ROBINSON.   Dorothy HOSTHEAD, aged 5, was with her HOSTHEAD Gran in 1851; unfortunately no later trace of Dorothy HOSTHEAD has yet been found so she can't yet be absolutely and completely ruled out. 

An appropriate Dorothy ROBINSON still has not been found in the 1851 census.

And Frederick George ROBINSON (b ca 1821 Gainsborough) still has not been found in the 1851 census.

Also not yet found in the 1851 census is the Frederick George ROBINSON (might be the same person) who married Sarah Ann BERRY in Doncaster in 1849.

Claire was last on the thread on 6 June - I wonder whether she's found out anything else?

JAP

 

[Geoff E]

JAP ... Yes you're right of course!

Dorothy Hasthead 5 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Granddaughter  

This is the only Dorothy I can see connected to Gainsborough but she is a bit of a long shot.

[JAP]

Geoff,

On FreeBMD there are three records of babies named Dorothy registered in Gainsborough in the 1840s ...

Births, Jun qtr 1843
Dorothy Diana GREEN
(1853 Mar qtr, FreeBMD has the death of a Dorothy GREEN in Gainsborough - same person?)

Births, Mar qtr 1846
Dorothy HOSTHEAD (transcribed as HOSTIRED - illegitimate daughter of Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD)

Births, Sep qtr 1849
Dorothy BERRY
(1852 Sep qtr, FreeBMD has the death of a Dorothy BERRY in Gainsborough - same person?)

But Dorothy ROBINSON has not been found.

It would be good if Claire's puzzle could be resolved (or if further information could be found from censuses or from Gainsborough baptismal registers).

JAP

[Geoff E]

Dorothy BERRY has not yet been found.

Probably the Dorothy BERRY age 1 in Misterton (Notts) in 1851.

daughter of John BERRY 34/54 (Misterton) and Elizabeth 33 (W Stockwith).