Cornish Mystery

[JAP]

Deb, Deb,

It has to show that she's a CARNARTON        - doesn't it     

Well, of course it does - but some more birth certs might be the icing on the cake  (says the pedant!).

Though tell "Mum" to get out the magnifying glass and look a bit more carefully at Amelia's ms!

I'm truly so excited and glad for you (I got up and did a little jig!).

I'm starting to wonder (this is way off in the realms of guesswork) that perhaps George somehow became enamoured of the Travelling life and that's perhaps why he left coachbuilding (perhaps he'd built some vans for Travellers) and even why he adopted the surname SMITH (a fine Travelling name). And that this is what might have led to his descendant Bessie marrying a Traveller (albeit she brought him into a house dwelling life).

Sorry Deb - I'm going off into flights of fancy ...

I'm off to bed and a read of the next chapter of Lavengro.

All the best,

JAP

[Valda]

Super efficient and quick mother there. Does she do lookups in Cornwall's Record Office in Truro as well?

Since it is after all Carnarton or near enough we now need the removal orders from the record office and an answer on the 'Bastardy Order'. I wouldn't hold out to much hope on the 'Bastardy Order'.

Regards

Valda

[deb usa]

Hi again
I have been doing a little bit of search on ancestry looking at original census transcripts and with the cursive writing of those days, i can easily see how Carnarton could be mistranscribed as CarMarton...
anyway...i think another birth cert of one of amelia and george' kids might be just added iceing....as you said JAP... lol
i was thinking that ordering Amelia Carnarton/slack/smith's birth cert would be great..... but we do not have any details of her birth except that it may have been in 1816/7 in Falmouth.
Any thoughts on how to persue this further .....
As was previously said i doubt we will find Amelia's father as Mary (amelia's mother?) was originally a carnarton.!

Also JAP , I love the idea of george wanting to be involved with the travellers... the Gypsy caravans were called VARGOs...maybe he did get involved in building them....

Another little tidbit is that my John Palmer who married Mary/slack/smith (who's birth cert we have just received) was according to family history quite a "mean" man......john and mary had my ggrandmother Bessie palmer who married William Penfold , the gypsy.
John hated that...he didn't even attend his daughter's funeral because of the gypsy marriage.
Bessie(palmer)penfold died just a few months after William penfold. He died in april/may/ june quarter of 1926 and she died in the oct/nov/dec quarter of 1926. they left behind approx 17 children ...the oldest few of them were already married. My grandmother was 14 years old and got a job , but the rest of the kids were sent to orphanages...... JOhn Palmer did nothing to help his grandchildren!!!!!
Maybe , i am thinking , he hated the gypsy/hawker way of life as he had found out at some stage that his wife Mary/slack/smith /..child of george and amelia ... had come from hawkers...... and her family had a secret ie...changing names, changing occupations and also that mary had been illegitimate.
Another strange thing is that we cannot find the death of MaryPalmer (nee slack/smith).... according to 1901 census(RG 13/2222) William and Bessie palmer are living at 27 calenick st. kenwyn truro with their kids and right next door to them is living  Her father , john Palmer and bessie's brother John....
John Palmer is seen as married..but i cannot find Mary anywhere!?
 
well, i have no idea why i added all that , but it does give some more info on the emotions that  they were most probably feeling at that time.
 
have a good day everyone
Deb  

[deb usa]

hi Valda
i was just posting my last message when yours came through. My mum posted the birth cert request and it arrived this morning. Cornwall Records Office are really fantastic...it only takes a couple of days for her to get certs back from them....talk about efficient...i am thinking of emailing them a thank you letter...

so to answer your question...my mum does this by post  as she has bad arthritis and is most of the time in major pain , especially her knees. i am hoping that she will be able to make her way to the CRO as soon as it warms up and she is having a good day.!!!
she is also very excited about the findings on the family!!!
i will order the  removal order from them asap...
thanks
have a great day
Deb

[peterpjw]

G'day Deb and others

Congrats, Deb!  That birth certificate has taken your Carnarton line back to about 1760-ish (the estimated birth of Charles senior).  The earliest record is his marriage at Helston in 1791.

I'm looking forward to hearing what the removal documents say, and if there is a bastardy bond.  Don't give up yet on discovering the name of Amelia's father.  You might be lucky.

I haven't had a chance to look for any more on the Sithney family yet - I've been to the Sydney Royal Easter Show (an agricultural show) with my family and am finishing the chores today to free up some time tomorrow.

Cheers

Peter

[peterpjw]

Me again

The OPC for Sithney has uploaded data at http://www.rootsweb.com/~engcopc.

I found the following:

• marr 12 Jul 1753 Sithney, Alice CARNARTHEN to William THOMAS
• bapt 4 Oct 1768 Sithney, Charles CARNANTON, base born son of Christian GEORGE (her name was given as Xtian) - a good candidate for our Charles senior?  Anything on removals or bastardy bonds?
• buried 22 Oct 1770, Sithney, Mary CARNARTON w of John CARNARTON
• marr 27 Dec 1770 Sithney, Catherine CARNARTON of Sithney to Ebenezer HITCHENS of Gwennap, witnesses William ASHMAN and William PASCOE
• marr 27 Jul 1783 Sithney, Mary CANARTHEN of Helston to Peter HAMMILL of Sithney, witnesses Thomas EDGCOMBE and William PASCOE
• buried 12 May 1790, Sithney, John CARNARTON of Madron aged 63

My 5g grandmother, Grace PAULL nee CARNARTHEN was bapt 24 Oct 1736 at Madron, and one of her brothers was John CARNARTHEN bapt 14 Mar 1731 at St Ives.  Am I still being optimistic??

Cheers

Peter

[JAP]

Peter,

Very interesting.

But no wonder we didn't find that 1768 Charles!

I've now checked on the IGI in the Sithney batch (P021561).

Charles is listed in the IGI as Charles Curnunton GEORGE - not to mention that Christian GEORGE is listed as his father!  Definitely not one of their better efforts at indexing!
(Christian had an earlier illegitimate son in 1862; another Charles, the father of whom was a George CORNISH).

JAP

[peterpjw]

Hi again

More data, this time from Helston OPC http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cricket5:

• marr 4 Dec 1756, Helston, Jane CANARTON of Gulval to Edward GONINAN
• marr 20 Mar 1791, Helston, Charles CARNARTHAN of Helston to Margaret PERROW, witnesses M?? (or Abed'o) PERROW, John JAGO, banns (my comment - could this be Abednego PERROW?)
• buried 10 Feb 1803, Helston, Charity CARNARTON, 5 yrs, daughter of Charles CARNARTON
• marr 25 Sep 1826, Helston, Abednego CARNARTON of Helston to Mary LANDERYOU, witnesses C OPIE, Peter LANDERYOU, banns

My Grace PAULL nee CARNARTHEN had a sister Jane CARNARTHEN bapt 12 Feb 1733 at Madron and her mother Jane CARNARTHEN nee USTES (EUSTACE) was buried at Gulval on 12 Feb 1754.  This is the Jasper line that was mentioned earlier.

Jasper CARNARTHEN bapt 22 Feb 1695 Uny Lelant
marr 8 Jun 1729 Towednack to
Jane USTES bur 12 Feb 1754 at Gulval

Children:

1  Edward bapt 11 Jan 1730 St Ives
2  John bapt 14 Mar 1731 St Ives
3  Jane bapt 12 Feb 1733 Madron
4  Katherine bapt 12 Feb 1733 Madron
5  George bapt 27 Jul 1735 at Madron
6  Grace bapt 24 Oct 1736 at Madron
7  Thomas (m 1757 Camborne to Jane ANDREW) (I don't have a baptism for him, and he may or may not be child of Jasper and Jane).

Cheers

Peter

[peterpjw]

So much for the chores!!

More browsing...

George CORNISH's wife Florence was buried 1755 in Sithney.

His bastard by Christian GEORGE was buried 20 Jan 1763 in Sithney.

William and Christian GEORGE buried three children in Sithney as follows:

Elizabeth 27 Feb 1749
Charles 2 Oct 1754
Richard 5 Oct 1755

Also these baptisms:

Christian GEORGE 9 Aug 1737 d/o William
Margaret GEORGE 4 Feb 1738 d/o William & Christian
William GEORGE 9 May 1741 s/o William & Christian
Richard GEORGE 20 May 1744 s/o William & Catherine (should it be Christian?)
John GEORGE 25 Mar 1746 s/o William & Christian
Elizabeth GEORGE 18 Feb 1749 d/o William & Christian
Elizabeth GEORGE 27 Nov 1751 d/o William & Christian
Charles GEORGE 27 Sep 1754 s/o William & Christian
Mary GEORGE 6 Feb 1757 d/o William & Christian

I wonder if Christian GEORGE's bastard Charles CARNARTHEN was son of John (who m Mary)?  And was that John brother to my Grace?

Cheers

Peter