Cornish Mystery

[deb usa]

Hi Good People
the cert has been ordered...yey.....
i have been googling the whole day...using variants such as george smith in london..george slack bastardy etc in order to find something on why he left london to go to truro....which is odd, that someone should leave london to go to cornwall, as Valda said in a previous message ..or was it JAP or peter... lol
okay...where should i look??
what should i do?...i want to help...!!!!!!!!!:)
 also why do we think that it was george slacks fault that resulted in the change of name from slack to smith...i am only thinking this as during my search today i came upon an amelia slack that was married to a joseph slack  and had a son joseph jnr in holborn london....in seeing this i thought that maybe we were blaming george for changing his family's name to smith because of his situation as opposed to something SHE had done... okay..... i know i am going off on a tangent...but think it's better to say something and have it  torn down than not say anything at all. LOL
 just a suggestion!!!!
as i said earlier late here now...and i am sick of waking up thinking about AMELIA ...LOL
 thanks again...waiting in anticipation of birth cert.....
love deb xxxxxx

[JAP]

Well Deb,

There are certainly all sorts of questions.

The birth cert should (we hope) answer the question of Amelia SLACK/SMITH's maiden surname.

As to your question of whether it was George or Amelia who plumped for the change of name to SMITH - the birth cert should show whether was it George or Amelia who was the informant of Mary's birth cert under the name SLACK!  If it was George (and if he was the informant on all the SLACK birth certs) perhaps Amelia was the one who opted for SMITH - or vice versa.  Who knows ...

I think at this stage we just have to sit on our hands and wait for the birth cert - easy for me to say as they are not my rells!  Though I'd be champing at the bit if they were!

I guess there is one more thing you could do while you are waiting.

On the presumption that Amelia will turn out to be a CARNARTON, you could contact (as Valda has proposed) the Cornwall Record Office at the URL she has provided:
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=307
to see whether there is any further information about the 1817 removal order for Mary CARNARTON.  At the very least you could get a quote for this (shouldn't cost anything for a quote, and it probably won't cost a lot for photocopies) while you await the birth cert - then only order the photocopies if the birth cert does identify your Amelia as a CARNARTON.

What you would be looking for in your query to the Cornwall Records Office would be:
Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref.  QS/1/8  - date: Jan 1812-Apr 1817
item: Sessions held at Truro - ref.  QS/1/8/626-678  - date: 15th April 1817
Appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. inst. for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman, from Kenwyn: held over.

Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref.  QS/1/9  - date: July 1817-Oct 1819
item: Sessions held at Bodmin - ref.  QS/1/9/40-78  - date: 14th October 1817
Continued appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. last for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman from Kenwyn: order confirmed. Falmouth to pay Kenwyn £5 costs.

It certainly is a fascinating quest.

Best regards,

JAP

[Valda]

I'm more than happy for Charles senior to die before statutory registration its just that the Cornish burial index 1813-1837 (which as far as I can tell is comprehensive for Anglican churchyards) doesn't seem to have him buried - or any Carnartons (various spellings) except Mary Jane.

Debs
Anyone could have done something to cause a name change but going for the simplest answer would be some sort of bankruptcy because that would also explain the major change in occupation for George.
Slack is a extremely rare surname in Cornwall but it isn't in other places of the country. The 1851 census produces 11 Amelia Slacks and 2,727 Slacks in all.

The internet does not supply all the answers it just pricks the surface. Most of the really interesting records are not indexed electronically and probably/possibly will never be. The National Archives has 10 million records indexed but this is chicken feed compared to its over 50 miles of shelved records stretching back a thousand years (plus records offsite because of storage issues). On top of TNA records are the county record offices records and other institutions records such as the British Library.

1.You have ordered the birth certificate
2. JAP has given you very good advice on the email request Cornwall RO

In the meantime you have to wait.

However I would suggest while you wait on your PC (or by hand) in the hope that it proves to be the surname Carnarton (otherwise it will be a waste of time unfortunately - though as an exercise it is important to be able to do it for your family history) take the information you have so far and construct a family tree. That has the added benefit of revisiting the information but giving you a visual representation. With the tree also list the source information. As we all wait (and I go back to work after a holiday) and other things intervene, we might forget some of the details of this thread and there are a lot of them. When we come back overtime we will not necessarily remember all these details. Peter presumably is also doing this since he has a head start and we have only been adding to his knowledge of this line. That way you have an overview as well.
Start with Charles senior and Margery and what you know about them and from what sources and then each of their children in turn.
This lacks the adrenalin of 'the search' but it is important to do and it will be helpful to JAP and myself in reminding us.

Regards

Valda

[JAP]

Valda,

What very very sensible advice!

Since the first page of this fascinating thread I've been thinking how very much easier it would have been had I entered all the CARNARTONs and rells as a separate project into my genealogical program (TMG -  The Master Genealogist - a really great program with almost infinite flexibility and said by many, and of course I agree, to be the most powerful program around) but I have resisted that temptation!  I have entered more than enough people from my own distant rells not to mention all the incredibly distant people from my own two informal one-name studies.

Instead I've been regularly trundling back and forth through this thread, page by page, looking at the CARNARTONs and SLACKs and trying to remind myself of who is related to whom ...  And, of course, as things get more and more complicated, and if there is subsequently a time gap in correspondence on this thread, it can only become more difficult.

Well, we now await (depending on Debs and Peter):
* Mary SLACK's birth cert with (we hope) Amelia's maiden surname and possibly other useful info
* perhaps some further info from the Cornwall Record Office about Mary CARNARTON's 1817 removal
* perhaps, from the National Archives, the Will of spinster Mary CARNARTON in Sithney in 1797 .

As someone who normally has no experience of research in Cornwall but usually researches in other counties (not just in England but also in Scotland and Ireland), I must say that I'm amazed at the comprehensiveness of the Cornwall records (100% on FreeCEN in 1841!!) including the burial index.  If only 'twere so elsewhere ...  For me burials are a fantastic bonus - though I have, admittedly, found some Scottish ones which brilliantly spelled out relationships (John LOCHTIE jnr said it all).

JAP

[peterpjw]

G'day everyone

Well, it's 10:30 am here, and already 26 degrees C, heading for a hot 31!  I'm taking a few days annual leave before Easter, so can spend a little more time on this fascinating thread.  (I should be doing the housework, though!)

I'm attaching my gedcom FYI, with the caveat that I have entered relationships as hypothesised before we have the proof.  Also, I haven't been too fussed about the spelling of the Canarton surname.  Perhaps you could all double check it for me against the data in this thread.  (And remember, I created it just to keep track of developments on this thread, it's not meant to be gospel!  It's a working document, subject to change as more evidence comes to hand.)

I'll order the Sithney document today.

Cheers

Peter

[peterpjw]

Me again,

I have the Sithney document:

• TNA Catalogue Reference: IR 26/339 Image 16
• Number: 84
• Date of the probate or admon and sum sworn: 22 Aug 1797 under 900 pounds
• Name and description of the testator or intestate: Mary CARNARTHON of Sithney spinster
• Name and places of abode of the executors or admors: Catherine HITCHENS (place not given)
• Names of the legatees distinguishing the residuary legatee:
• Catherine HITCHENS (the executrix), residuary legatee, sister, all the rest etc of her lands tenements goods etc
• Alice THOMAS widow, sister, twenty pounds
• Mary ANDREW, niece, twenty pounds
• Catherine HITCHENS, niece, one hundred pounds
• Richard ANDREW, one hundred pounds for the use and benefit of her nephew Wm Thos ANDREW

So, what can we make of this?  The ANDREW family appears to be from Redruth:

Richard ANDREW
m 24 Dec 1786 Sithney to
Mary THOMAS
issue at least

• Mary ANDREW bapt 14 Jul 1788 Redruth
• William Thomas ANDREW bapt 9 Nov 1790 Redruth
• Joseph ANDREW bapt 14 Jul 1791 Redruth
• Mary ANDREW bapt 23 Jun 1794 Redruth

How was Mary THOMAS connected as niece to Mary CARNARTHEN?  Was Mary THOMAS's mother a CARNARTHEN?  And what about the two ladies called Catherine HITCHENS?  Were they mother and daughter?  Was the elder Catherine a CARNARTHEN?

I have a Thomas CARNARTHEN m 12 Nov 1757 at Camborne to Jane ANDREW in my tree.    He was brother to my 5xg grandmother.

And, is there a connection between the Sithney family and the Kenwyn-Truro-Helston CANARTONs?

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Cheers

Peter

[JAP]

Hi Peter,

Very interesting!

I guess as Catherine HITCHENS (Executrix and residuary legatee) and Alice THOMAS are both described as sisters of Mary CARNATHON (however spelled) they must both have been CARNATHONs - unless 'sister' is being used very loosely.

Perhaps you'll find some more marriages?

Cheers,

JAP
PS: Mary the testatrix seems to have been much better off than the Kenwyn - Truro - Helston families!

[Valda]

Pity that means if it is Carnarton there is no easy way back from Helston for Debs line to somewhere else such as adjacent and convenient Sithney which I now can't see has a simple connection.

I initially thought that Mary the spinster's death in circa 1795 was this baptism, but the sister Catherine's age seems to rule it out - not to mention Alice's who seems another generation almost.

MARY CANARTAN  
Christening:  01 JUL 1759   Sithney, Cornwall
Father:  JOHN CANARTAN
Mother:  MARY  

JOHN CARNARTON  
Christening:  13 MAY 1762   Sithney, Cornwall
Father:  JOHN CARNARTON  
Mother:  MARY  

Marriages and baptisms that fit the death Duty Register

Sithney 27 Dec 1770
Ebenezer HITCHINS  
Catherine CARNARTON

CATHERINE HITCHENS  
Christening:  27 DEC 1771   Gwennap, Cornwall
Father:  EBENEZER HITCHENS  
Mother:  CATHERINE  

Sithney 12 Jul 1753
William THOMAS  
Alice CARNARTHEN

MARY THOMAS  
Christening:  10 OCT 1755   Sithney, Cornwall
Father:  WM. THOMAS  
Mother:  ALICE  

WM. THOMAS  
Christening:  08 JAN 1758   Sithney, Cornwall
Father:  WILLM. THOMAS  
Mother:  ALICE  
  
The only baptism I can find for that Catherine would be this one and nothing for Catherine or Mary.I've no idea if it is the right baptism and Jasper seems a bit of a dead end - though I'm sure he's fascinating to Peter - there is an earlier Jasper baptism in 1664 in Cornwall.

Madron 12 Feb 1733/34
Katherine CARNARTHEN
Father Jasper CARNARTHEN

No obvious connection in anyway to Charles Carnarton senior of Helston, but there are still the two Sithney baptisms in 1759 and 1762 with the possibility that John and Mary may have had another child (somewhere) called Charles and I suppose John could be a brother to these sisters from the Death Duty register - seems a lot of suppposing. Best marriage possibility I can come up with for the John and Mary couple (St Hilary is between Sithney and Madron going further and further west to the 'toe' of Cornwall - so a possibility for this family coming west from Madron via Sithney).

St Hilary 11 Apr 1757
John CARNARTHEN  
Mary PASCOE

Regards

Valda
  




  
  

[deb usa]

Hi Guys
 
WELL....the birth cert of Mary Slack has arrived. My mum received it this morning... these are the details:
registration district :truro
sub district : St Clement
23 July 1858...Mary..... Union street , Truro
Father: George Slack
            hawker
Mother: Amelia Slack...... formerly.... CARMARTON

I am soooooo excited...we are on the right path.....
yey, yey, yey, yey, happy dance !!!!!!!!!!!!!
hope to hear from you all soon
Deb