Cornish Mystery

[JAP]

1. Lots more excellent ideas and suggestions, Valda.  There certainly seem to be lots of great sources available for Cornwall.  Re the registry office marriage, I suppose there could be other reasons - perhaps the Kenwyn vicar wouldn't marry the illegitimate Amelia, or wouldn't marry George who might not at the time have been of the parish, or George and Amelia might not have wanted to wait for banns or to have them publicly proclaimed in Kenwyn (perhaps George already had a wife back in London ...!) ...

2. Aunt Margery CARNARTON.
Peter, re your point 12, I'm afraid I couldn't find a connexion between Margery CARNARTON and Sarah (Sally) LIBBY.  Perhaps it's a courtesy title in view of Margery's age - though why would Margery (we believe her to be Margaret/Margery PERROW, widow of Charles CARNARTON snr) be living with Sarah?  Perhaps it is some very distant connexion.
Fanny MINERS is certainly the niece of Sarah LIBBY.
However, not only can't we explain how Margery CARNARTON could be an Aunt of Sarah's, but even less can we explain why Margery ASHBORNE was recorded as the GrandDaughter of the unmarried Sarah LIBBY.  That seems to be just a mistake - Margery ASHBORNE is the granddaughter of Margery CARNARTON (we believe). 

3. Thomas HEARD & Kitty
Here's a couple of those names in 1851.
1851
HO107/1703
Claremont Street, Edmonton, Middlesex
HEARD Thomas, Head, Mar, 44, Coach Smith, b Dorset Weymouth
Do Kitty, Wife, Mar, 43, b Cornwall Truro
Do Charles, Son, 16, Coach Smith, b Berkshire Maidenhead
Do Daniel, Son, 14, Errand Boy, b do
Do Edward, Son, 12, Scholar at Home, b do
Do Ann, Daughter, 9, Scholar at Home, b Middlesex Kensington
Do James, Son, 2, b Middlesex Piccadilly
The family might be a possibility for 'our' couple though there are both pluses and minuses.
* A move out of Cornwall would explain why they can't be found there in the 1841.
* Kitty's birthplace is given as Truro rather than Helston - but if Thomas gave the information he well might not have known.  And her age is about right for Christian CARNARTON (bap 1808).
* There are baptisms on the IGI in Bray, Berkshire for a Thomas 1833 and a Charles 1835.  And an Ann's birth in Kensington in Jun qtr 1841.  It would require Daniel bap 1827, Thomas bap 1831 and James bap 1843 (all in Kenwyn) not to have survived.
* Why would James be bap in Cornwall in 1843 if the family were living in Middlesex.

JAP

[peterpjw]

G'day all

Found another piece to the jigsaw (didn't see this mentioned earlier, did I miss it?):

1841 census
Kenwyn, Charles Street
HO 107/147/8
ED 4 Book 14 Folio 59 Page 4
all b in county

MINERS, Francis, 25, lab.
CARNARTON, Elizabeth, 20, lab.
MANSELL, Harriett, 20, lab.

Should this be Frances (ie Fanny) MINERS?  I guess Elizabeth is d/o Charles jr & Mary (nee DUFF).

Also on 1841 in Charles Street, something I didn't pick up from previous posts, but obvious looking at COCP, that Emidy and Carnarton families lived next door to one another.

And, further afield genealogically speaking, on the 1861 census, I found:

At Gwealangears, Wendron:
LANDERYOU family
William, h, m, 44, butcher, b Wendron
Elizabeth, w, m, 40, b Feock
William Henry, s, 14, scholar, b Helston
Elizabeth Jane, d, 13, scholar, b Helston
John, s, 11, scholar, b Helston
Thomas, s, 9, scholar, b Helston
Peter Charles, s, 7, scholar, b Helston
James, s, 5, scholar, b Helston
Johanna, d, 3, twin, b Wendron
George Henry, s, 3, twin, b Wendron
ALLEN, Priscilla, serv, u, 17, indoor servant, b Sithney

Probably closely related to wife of Benjamin/Abednego CARNARTON.

Also, on 1851 census, Mary CARNARTON (nee DUFF) and three children are lodgers (as previously noted).  They were lodging with a family by the surname ANTHONY, the wife being Elizabeth ANTHONY, 35, b Truro.  Wonder if this might not have been Mary DUFF's daughter Elizabeth b 1822 Kenwyn.  Can anyone prove or disprove?

Cheers

Peter

[JAP]

Hi Peter,

Just one quick comment.  Fanny MINERS is with her parents Thomas and Betsey in Pydar St in the 1841 - as Fanny MINORS 20 (this is on p3 in the post immediately before you joined the thread).

Cheers,

JAP

[deb usa]

good morning everyone
 
Well it is the start of a new week and hopefully more great and fabulous info!! lol
i am going to be phoning my mum this morning with all the relevant info re: ordering certs..... i do just want to make sure that i have everything correct~
1. birth cert of MARY SLACK(smith) dau of george and amelia...b.sept 1859
2. death cert of AMELIA CARNARTON... june 1842

3. then... just a thought...maybe order birth cert of Amelia CARNARTON/DUFF b 1816 falmouth...would i be able to order this cert through truro office or would i have to order through falmouth office???/  another thought is where was Amelia born as Mary( Duff?) was sent back to falmouth from kenwyn...would that have happened before baby was born or afterward?

sooooo ...if you are all at your computers right now (LOL) please let me know if this is all i should do...
any other info you can add to this before i order would be great!!
hope you are all having a good day
Deb x

[Valda]

Peter
Elizabeth Anthony is I think too old to be Mary and Charles' daughter, since she is 35 on the 1851 census. The only marriage on FreeBMD for a James and Elizabeth is this one

Marriages Mar 1842
ANTHONY  James    Truro  9 363  
OLIVEY  Elizabeth     Truro  9 363  

which incidentally/coincidentally is on the same page in the GRO index as George Slack and Amelia Knorrton's marriage.

Anyone - because this is the interesting bit.
The 1851 census has Mary Carnarton as married with children born in the 1840s. Emily aged 10 and

Births Sep 1843
CARNARTON  Robert     Truro  9 324

which takes me back to missing Charles Carnartons since I don't like loose ends. Rather dispiritedly I'd begun to accept that Charles must be at sea - not an occupation that suited tanners etc. However I have now found Charles junior in a much much more pleasing occupation - in fact better even than anything to do with tanning.

1851 census HO107 1907 folio 307
Bull Ring St Austell
Charles Karmanton 52  Helston, Cornwall,  (Smith crossed through and replaced by Servant)  Married Coach smith

I presume his is the death registered in 1858. I can't find him on the 1841 census.

Still leaves half of my original question about missing Charles Carnartons. What happened to Charles senior? I can't find him under any variant in the 1813- June 1837 Cornish burial index. If he died before 1813 you wouldn't expect Amelia to have put his details down as her father (if the theory of illegitimacy is correct and she put down the male relative nearest to her). Between 1837-1841 FreeBMD has almost complete coverage of deaths - nothing for Truro found. Which just leaves the 1846 death, but no young Charles Carnarton after the 1841 census either.

Regards

Valda

P.S. Debs on ordering anything

Civil registration in England and Wales began on 1st July 1837 - everything before that is parish registers. Amelia Carnarton the daughter of Mary nee Duff's baptism has been found by JAP. She was legitimately born.

Amelia COUNACKAN, parents Charles COUNACKAN and Mary, bap 3 Oct 1824, Kenwyn Cornwall

Marriage of her parents
Kenwyn 8 Dec 1823
Charles CARNARTON 
Mary DUFF

This known Amelia isn't the one we want. We want the at present non-existant one who we hope was real and born probably in Falmouth.

The only possibility we have that there may have been a Carnarton birth in Falmouth around this time is the removal order of Mary Carnarton baptised in Helston on 10th July 1791 the daughter of Charles Carnarton senior and his wife 'Margery' Perrow. This Mary Carnarton later married Richard Dennis on 11th April 1819 in Kenwyn and had children in Kenwyn. We hope but have no proof that the reason for the removal order to Falmouth of Mary in 1817 was because she was pregnant. The removal order in the Cornish quarter sessions (courts) may specify she was pregnant.

Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref.  QS/1/8  - date: Jan 1812-Apr 1817
item: Sessions held at Truro - ref.  QS/1/8/626-678  - date: 15th April 1817
Appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. inst. for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman, from Kenwyn: held over.

Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref.  QS/1/9  - date: July 1817-Oct 1819
item: Sessions held at Bodmin - ref.  QS/1/9/40-78  - date: 14th October 1817
Continued appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. last for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman from Kenwyn: order confirmed. Falmouth to pay Kenwyn £5 costs.

Photocopies of these documents can only be ordered from Cornwall Record Office

(the certificates of Mary Slack's birth and Amelia Carnarton's death, since you live overseas are probably better ordered through the General Register Offfice (website address previously given) - you will need to give the full details given you to order them - name of person, year, quarter, registration district, volume number, page number).
If someone in England is ordering them for you then the GRO references are irrelevant to a local registry office. They will need the name, year and quarter.

Details of Truro register office are here
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=4513
The birth and death were registered in Truro.
It looks like you have to phone or fax them.

If you order photocopies of the removal orders from Cornwall's Record Office (website already given on the thread) give the full details with the references and also ask if these removal orders resulted in a Bastardy Order involving Mary Carnarton because if so you would also like a photocopy of that record and then ask them how much all those photocopies will cost and how to proceed.

[JAP]

Hi Deb,

Just to endorse what Valda has just posted.

If I were you, all I would do now would be to order just one certificate - the birth cert of Mary SLACK, 1858 (it's 1858 not 1859).
Mary SLACK, birth, Sep qtr 1858, Truro, Vol 5c, page 180
That (we hope) will have the maiden name of her mother, Amelia SLACK.  And it will either be
(a) CARNARTON which will be great, or
(b) some other name similar to KNORRTON which we hadn't thought of.

Either way, there's definitely no need to spend money on the 1842 death certificate of Amelia CARNARTON as
(a) if the maiden name of Mary's mother turns out to be CARNARTON, then we'll know she couldn't have been the Amelia CARNARTON who died in 1842 - so the certificate of the Amelia who died in 1842 will be of no interest to you
(b) if the maiden name of Mary's mother turns out NOT to be CARNARTON then you will have no further interest in people of that name.

Good night!

JAP
PS: Im afraid some confusion has crept in (not surprising with all the twists and turns and people of similar names!).
We think that the unmarried Mary CARNARTON, who was removed to Falmouth in 1817, was probably a sister of Charles CARNARTON jnr. (both of them being children of Charles CARNARTON snr and Margery/Margaret PERROW - Mary bap 1791, and Charles jnr bap 1800, both in Helston).
It was actually Charles CARNARTON jnr who had a pre-nuptial child with a Mary DUFF in 1822 (he subsequently married her in 1823).  They went on to have an Amelia CARNARTON in 1824 but she couldn't be your Amelia SLACK (your Amelia SLACK consistently gives an age which produces a birth date of ca 1817). 
We don't actually know whether the reason for the removal of the unmarried Mary CARNARTON in 1817 was that she was pregnant (though it seems a likely reason).
And we don't actually know whether she did give birth to an illegitimate child.  And we don't actually know whether that child was an Amelia.  These are just hypotheses.   

 

[deb usa]

Hi again

okay...i am with you now...i must admit that i was confused ...i was thinking that my amelia came from charles carnarton and mary duff....
phew!!!!
i have got it...my amelia (hopefully) is from mary carnarton sister of charles jnr,...i think my confusion is because marriage cert of my amelia states that her dad was charles the tanner.
 will order cert and we will see
thanks again for all you have done
deb

[peterpjw]

Mornin' all

Excellent work finding Charles on the 1851 census at St Austell!

COCP has him indexed as KARNARTON, and ancestry.co.uk has him indexed as KASMANTON.  The folio is 370 not 307.  I had a look at the image of the page.  The handwriting is unusual.  The enumerator has an unusual way of writing capital K, looks like an R, but definitely a K comparing to other words (eg place names) on the page.  My take, for what it's worth, is KANNANTEN.  I agree, however, that it is "our" Charles CARNARTON.  Looks like he was employed in quite a successful carrier business. Other "servants" were drivers of omnibuses, coach painter, van driver, bookkeeper and porter, and there were lodgers too.

By the way, now that we know that Charles jr was a coach smith, does that add a little more weight to Charles sr being the tanner?  And is it looking like Charles sr died prior to civil registration starting?

Looking forward to hearing from Deb once she obtains Mary's birth certificate.

Cheers

Peter

[JAP]

Hi Peter,

That enumerator's hand is certainly rather weird (and yes, a fantastic find by Valda).  I see Charles as either KARMANTON or KANNANTON - wouldn't like to choose.  Yes, it obviously was a successful business he was working in.  Though I wouldn't like to be searching for the boss who is transcribed in 1851 on a certain site as William Bidkik MELLOW(!) though it's pretty obviously KELLOW to me; William appears in 1861 as William Beddick KELLOW (William Beddick KELLEW in the IGI) and has become a farmer of 350 acres employing 13 labourers and 5 boys.

I Googled for "Coach Smith" or "Coachsmith" without getting a great deal of information.  However I was interested to see that it's still an occupation.  For instance:
Click Here
Or Here

Yes, it will be very interesting to see Amelia's maiden name on Mary's birth certificate.  If it is CARNARTON (or obvious variant), we can proceed from there.

On your general quest of trying to link all the families back to Phillack, it does seem that the Will of Mary CARNARTHEN of Sithney at the National Archives (reference from Valda) just might contain something useful.

Cheers,

JAP
PS: There are two deaths of a Charles CARNARTON on FreeBMD.
Sep qtr 1846, Truro, Vol 9, page 179
Mar qtr 1858, Falmouth, Vol 5c, page 174
I guess as Valda has found the presumed Charles jnr, husband of Mary DUFF, still alive in 1851, the 1858 record may well be this Charles.
The 1846 Charles might well be Charles, son of the above Charles jnr and Mary (DUFF) bap 1827 in Kenwyn.
If so, that would indeed presumably leave Charles snr dying before Statutory Registration