1851 Census Norwich

[krisesjoint]

Hi just wondering if somebody could  try to find a couple of sisters for me in the 1851 census for Norwich. Unfortunately I cannot tell you much as I dont know much about these girls. I do not know there parents names. The girls I am after are

Emily Knights b about 1846 Norwich
Elizabeth Louisa Knights b about 1849 Norwich

Thank You....Kris

[Nicky]

No Elizabeth to be found, only one born 1835.
But found an Emily that fits,

Address St Martins Street Jones Yard, Norwich
Census place Norwich St Martin at Oak Norwich
PRO ref HO/107/1812
folio 147
page 3
film 0207465

Stephen Bloom, head, widower, 70,male, weaver, Mendlesham, Norfolk
Emily Knights, daughter, unmarried, 39, female, cotton filler, Hoxne, Suffolk
Charles Knights, grandson, 10, male, errand boy, Norwich
Harriett Knights, grandaughter, 8,female, scholar,Norwich
John Knights, grandson, 6, male,scholar,Norwich
Emily Knights,grandaughter, 4,female, scholar, Norwich

Hope this helps

Nicky

[krisesjoint]

mmm Nicky Thank you. looks like i will need 41 to get to the bottom of this one. Dau unmarried but different name to father  surely she is a widow.
Thanks very much...Kris

REQUEST COMPLETED

[LucyLockett]

Hi, did you ever get anywhere with your research on Emily Knights born in Suffolk and moved to Norwich in Norfolk? I too am stuck on whether she actually ever married, was Stephen Bloom her father? She had a daughter called Emily Knights who married Matthew George Rix and am finding her parents a little difficult to sort out. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[krisesjoint]

Hi Lucy,

A Big Welcome to RootsChat. 

Appologies for my delay in getting back to you. I somehow missed your reply.

This is an oldie. Sorry I am not related. It is my research buddy's family. I posted the request for her some years ago in my early days on RootsChat.

I have not looked at this in some time although I am often helping my friend with her family, but no we do not have the marriage, nor Emily's baptism. The belief is that Emily was Emily Bloom who is supposed to have married John Knights. No marriage located. My friend is decended from young Emily and Matthew George Rix through their daughter Rachel.

Cheers Kris 

[aelf]

Hi,

This is my first Rootschat posting, so please excuse my butting in...

I've been wrestling with Emily Knights for some time - she appears to be my 3xgreat grandmother, though the family seems to have been rather relaxed about detail when giving any information to the authorities, so everything comes with a health warning.

I think the strongest likelihood is that Emily was never married.  Stephen Bloom was her stepfather (father in law in the 1851 census).  He married Lydia Knights in St George Colegate, Norwich 6 June 1821; Lydia was the widow of John Knights who married her 2 December 1811 in Hoxne, her maiden name was Palmer, the daughter of Francis Palmer (died Hoxne 1794) and Keturah Shreeve (glorious name)  The baptismal register for Hoxne 1813-1837 is apparently missing so there is no absolute proof that Emily was their daughter but another daughter, Priscilla, had an illegitimate daughter also named Emily who was baptised in May 1811 in Hoxne and died the following October.

Stephen and Lydia apparently had 3 children, William Bloom (only known from the 1841 census) Francis Stephen Bloom born 1 April 1828 and Richard, born 26 July 1831 and buried 12 August 1831.  Lydia was buried in St George Colegate 29 July 1831, presumably died in childbirth.

A removal order was issued on 14 April 1829 against Stephen Bloom, linen-weaver, his wife Lydia and two children, for their removal from St George Colegate to Mendlesham.  Presumably they came back.

The surving family members are in the 1841 census in Pitt Street, St Augustine, Norwich.  They all have the surname Bloom, and include Emily's (presumed) children Charles 4 and Harriet 1.  There is no sign of anyone who could be Emily's husband.

Charles is my 2xgreat grandfather.  Although his age is given as 10 in the '51 census all later records indicate a birth around 1836/7 although I have not been able to find any record.  He married Ann Dye in 1856 and his marriage certificate names his father as William Knights, but on his second marriage in 1875 his father's name is not recorded.

Emily is in the 1861 census in Oak Street, Norwich with Emily 14 and Elizabeth 11.  She is listed as a charwoman, born in Norwich and a widow.  If it were not for the 2 daughters I would be less certain she was the same person.

I can't find any trace of Emily in the 1871 census but she died in Tinklers Lane, Heigham on 12 April 1876 of chronic bronchitis.  Her death certificate says she was the widow of John Knights (not William) and the burial register for Earlham Road Cemetery (16 April) says she was a single woman.

One final complication - the baptism register for St George Colegate shows a baptism of Emily, daughter of Francis and Emily Knights, born 9 September 1846, baptised 6 June 1847.  I may be slandering my ancestors, but I have a suspicion that Emily's stepfather Stephen may be the father of her children; he was buried 7 February 1854 and his name is recorded as Stephen Francis Bloom.

If hope this has not just muddied the waters - if you have any evidence to contradict what I seem to have found, let me know.

Aelf

[LucyLockett]

Hi Aelf,
Oh my goodness what a very complicated piece of information but I was told that Emily Knights was going to take a lot of working out and looks like you may have been just the person I was waiting for. I will need to digest the information you have given me and then pass it on to my friend and then on to another lady who I know will be fascinated. My friend and this other lady are related to Matthew and Emily Rix (nee Knights). Thank you ever so much for taking the time to copy your research to me. There are many odd people who research and never want to share that with others, why I have no idea but you have shown what I have known to be true of many. Like me you are willing to share what it has taken you months and years to unravel so again thank you very much. My friend Sue and her mum will be thrilled as will I am sure the Rix Alliance people who they may be meeting up with at the end of this month in Norwich.

Vicky

[krisesjoint]

Hi Aelf,

A Big Welcome to RootsChat. 

Thank you for your most informative post re the Knights, Bloom family. I have been in touch with my friend to pass on this information. She is very pleased to receive your information re this family. She is descended from Emily's daughter Emily who wed Matthew George RIX through their daughter Rachel who wed James William Hardman NOBBS 1897 Norwich. (Now James William Hardman NOBBS was the son of Emily's sister Elizabeth Louisa) She did not have a birth for Emily (1846) or Elizabeth Louisa (1851) but had their parents listed as John Knights and Emily Bloom. She is not sure at this stage where she came by the name of Emily and Elizabeth Louisa's father as John Knights.

Re your theory that Stephen Bloom may be the father, a little concerned as to his age as he would have been 70-75 when Elizabeth Louisa was born. I know you mentioned not having found a baptism for Charles but we are wondering if you have found records for any of Emily's other children? Certainly something suspicious with Charles naming his father as William at one marriage and unnamed at the second marriage, particularly in light of the baptism you have for Emily listing her father as Francis.

Their are a few little concerns in what you are saying here. Looking at 1851 census Stephen Bloom does in fact list as head, Emily KNIGHTS daughter (not daughter in law) and the 4 children all list as his grandchildren.

Had the death for Stephen Francis BLOOM Jun 1/4 1854 Norwich 4b 57
The burial date you have listed (Feb) does not seem to agree with this.

Also would you mind explaining this (wondering about another daughter Priscilla - who's daughter)

The baptismal register for Hoxne 1813-1837 is apparently missing so there is no absolute proof that Emily was their daughter but another daughter, Priscilla, had an illegitimate daughter also named Emily who was baptised in May 1811 in Hoxne and died the following October.

Re your own line - we note that Ann Dye died Mar 1870 yet in 1881 there is 9 year old Elizabeth Knights listed in the extended family. We do not see her in 1871 and Charles and Sarah Sayer did not marry until 1875.

Look forward to hearing more from you.

Kind Regards...........Kris 

[aelf]

Hi Vicky and Kris,

Good to know my info was useful - and apologies for anything unclear, misleading or just plain wrong. 

Kris, you are of course right about Emily being listed as Stephen Bloom's daughter in the 1851 census, that was a lapse on my part.  It still leaves the problem of Charles's age - he should have been around 16 but I wonder if the original census information was misread when the enumeratoir filled in the final form we see today.  In any case it looks very much as though the Knights/Bloom family was not keen on coming to the attention of the authorities.

My particular problem is that I have no positive evidence that my ancestor Charles Kights was the same person as the one in the 1841 and 1851 censuses.  I can't find any other possible candidate; also Charles and his son were both horsehair drafters, which is part of the brush making process - many others among the family were in the same trade.

It seems difficult to trace the family through the 1800s and it looks as though part of the problem is that the surnames change from Bloom to Knights and back again.  The FreeBMD
index shows a Harriet and John Knights having their births registerd at the right time to match the census ages, but in the Hoxne district - could they be the right ones?

As to the possibility that Stephen might be the father of Emily's children, that's just my nasty mind.  It's more likely that he wasn't, but raises the possibility that Emily just picked the names of male relatives at random whenever anyone official asked who her husband was!  I could be completely wrong and I try to keep an open mind when investigating Emily, but I keep remembering a quote from the late Alan Malville - "she was no better than she ought to be, and sometimes not as good as..."

I certainly saw the burial record for Stephen in the register of St George Colegate but I could have copied the date wrong.  Another possibility is that the death was registered after the burial - I don't know if that is possible, but at that period it was the responsibility of the registrar to find the information, the public were not forced to supply it voluntarily.

Sorry about the confusion over Priscilla's daughter, I was trying to avoid overloading the message.  The position is as follows: Francis Palmer and Keturah Shreeve had 5 children in Hoxne, Francis, Priscilla, Prudence, Lydia and Mary.  Priscilla had a daughter Emily baptised 14 May 1811 (no father named). When I found that in the Hoxne register I thought I had a new lead, until I found she was buried 10 Oct 1811.

Francis Palmer senior married Keturah 22 May 1785 in Stradbroke, Suffolk and he had a pauper's burial in Hoxne 21 Nov 1794.  His age as given at death would give a birth about 1761.  There was a Francis born then in Hoxne, but I'm not sure if he's the same person - his father was a farmer and appears to have been still alive in the 1790s, which makes me wonder whether he would have managed a "proper" funeral.

I'm still trying to get to grips with the people from the 1841 census in later years.  I'm not sure enough of anything to pass it on yet, but there is one possible pice of extra evidence. The 1841 census shows the following "Blooms" - Stephen 65, Emily 25, Samuel 20 , Willam 15, Francis 10, Charles 4 and Harriet 1.  (If you look them up on ancestry.co.uk you'll find them transcribed as Blonn) The only possible match I can find for Samuel in 1851 is a Samuel Knights, horsehair weaver, who was born around 1816 and who sometimes, but not always, gives his birthplace as Hoxne, presumably a brother of Emily.  I won't burden you with the full details of his career at present but it appears to follow the same pattern of confusion as the rest of the family.

Finally, I am still trying to solve the mystery of Elizabeth Knights, daughter of Charles.  I can't see a record under either Knights or Sayer.  It sometimes seems that every new fact raises at least two new questions.

Best wishes,

Larry