Earl family in Clifton area

[octochamp]

Hello everyone - I'm BE's brother - the one who's been tracing the family back to Noggin the Nog and Priam of Troy. (not!)

I've just joined rootschat so am a bit late on the scene. What fascinates me is the certainty with which Bedfordshire boy pours doubt on certain links in the chain. I may be being a bit thick - but how can you access the tree to see where the links are going - or is it my Australian friend's tree that you can somehow access?

Please give me a clue as to where you have spotted the discrepancy/ break in the tree - and also where you think there is an authentic line running back to Charlie himself in the eighth century. It'd save me a heck of a lot of work!

Thanks for the useful info so far - Ann Bland was a great bit of sleuthing.

[octochamp]

Dear Bedforshire Boy, I've just had another look over my tree and it is through the Earl/Turner line rather than the Earl/Roberts line that I have made the longest links.

The problem link for me is a link between a John Green born about 1445 and Sir Thomas Green born 1421. The Aussie link has them as father-son, but I can't find any corroboration elsewhere. Is this your discrepancy?

Sorry I didn't sign off properly last time (I didn't know whether you were supposed to be so friendly!)

Cheers,

Stuart

[octochamp]

Hello again!

The Mormons have records of an Absalom Foster baptised in Biggleswade on 05/11/1777, the child of John and Susan Foster. Further investigations shows that John was born in Biggleswade about 1738 and buried in Biggleswade on 18/07/1802, and that Susan was born about 1742 in Biggleswade and buried there on 12/04/1811.

Has anyone got any way of verifying any of this?

Is it just that poor old Absalom couldn't add up on the 1851 census as to how old he was...?

Cheers,

Stuart

[bedfordshire boy]

Hi Stuart

No certainty; just doubt! I'm not sure that pre 1837 there is ever 100% certainty, it's just that some connections are less certain than others.

The Earl/Roberts link to the Clifton/Henlow Cooper line I have grave doubts about.
Fact: Thomas Cooper married Ann Cook in 1765. One researcher has this Thomas as being baptised in 1722 in Clifton, the son of William & Ann, apparently overlooking two burial entries:
Thomas Cooper son of William in March 1736/7. The son of detail usually implies that the burial is of a minor. There were no other William Coopers in Clifton at that time, and no other Thomas's. If it wasn't the Thomas chr 1722 then who was it as there is no other Thomas in Clifton that it could have been?
Thomas Cooper age 70 buried in Clifton 1815. Again there were no other Thomas's in Clifton, so I can but assume that this was the widower of Ann Cook. An implied birth date of c1745 fits much better with a marriage in 1765.
There is no obvious Thomas on the IGI born c1745, but it is much easier to prove who someone isn't than to prove who someone is (there was another Cooper, Henry, who turned up in Clifton in c1782. He was from Biggleswade, and I wonder if he may have been connected with Thomas)

The Earl/Turner connection to the Coopers

Mary Turner married John Earl in Bedford in 1721. I cannot see any baptisms of children to this couple. Perhaps they were non-conformist, I don't know as I haven't researched them. John was buried in 1765 but I can't find a burial for Mary.
Thomas Earl married Ann Tingey in 1770 and was buried in Clifton in 1831 age 82, implying a birth year of c 1749.
I think it's a big leap of faith to apply Thomas as being the son of John and Mary, unless you have some other form of corroboration such as a will. Even then Mary would have been over 50 when she had Thomas (assuming she was still alive) which whilst not impossible does make me wonder.

Your other Earl connection to the Coopers via Daisy is not in dispute (other than a couple of missing baptisms in the 1600s which are covered by wills and hearth tax returns)

Whilst you're on, you may be able to clear up a gap in my tree. You have Thomas Cooper b c 1626 (one of these missing baptisms to which I referred - incomplete Henlow parish register) as marrying Mary Haggisse, his cousin. I thought she married Thomas Samme in 1652 at Henlow, per the parish register. I can trace no marriage of Thomas, although his wife was Mary, as the register is seriously deficient 1642-50, with no Bishops Transcript. Can you shed any light on this?

As for the older Cooper ancestry I have seen trees produced by apparently thorough researchers in the USA which go back to Cuthwulf in 580. Until I have time to go through them they're filed in the Fiction section of my bookcase.

I haven't researched the Green line further back than 1445 with John. An article in the American Genealogist by Robert Leigh Ward suggested (nothing stronger) that John Green might have been the second son of Sir Thomas Greene, and it was worthy of further research.  Assuming this link can be made where does this line take us? I haven't looked at it at all.

If you send me a Personal Message with your email address I'll send you the report which is on my Fiction shelf. (just click on my name and one of the options is send a personal message)

Regards

BB

[octochamp]

Thanks for your long and detailed reply. I fear I can't give much to you in response. On the Thomas Cooper marriage, I have no evidence - just a steal from (I suspect) the Leveritt tree on Genes Reunited. So your records may well be more authentic.

With regard to your lengthy discussion of missed burials, this isn't part of my tree, the last Thomas Cooper I have born in Henley is the 1626 one.

With regard to the Mary Turner/ John Earl/Thomas Earl conundrum, I have the same burial date for Thomas Earl, but have his age recorded as 86, which would give a birth year of 1745, making Mary only 49... Not impossible. Stretching probability, but no more than that.

Thanks for the info on John Green - that makes me more confident.

The tree goes like this:
1.   Stuart Earl         1959   whose father was
2.   Gordon John Earl      1929   whose father was
3.   Walter John Earl      1884   whose father was
4.   William Absalom Earl   1865   whose father was
5.   William Earl      1830   whose father was
6.   Thomas Earl      1806   whose father was
7.   George Earl      1782   whose father was
8.   Thomas Earl      1745   whose father was
9.   John Earl         1698   who married Mary Turner (b. 1696), whose father was
10.   John Turner      1650   who married Elizabeth Cooper (b. 1654), whose father was
11.   Thomas Cooper      1626   whose father was
12.   Benjamin Cooper      1575   whose father was
13.   Edmund Cooper      1542   whose father was
14.   Michael Cooper      ?   who married Elizabeth Page (b. 1515), whose father was
15.   Robert Page      1477   who married Cicely Green (b. 1472), whose father was
16.   John Green      1445   whose father was
17.   Thomas Greene      1421   whose father was
18.   Thomas Greene      1400   whose father was
19.   Thomas Greene      1369   whose father was
20.   Thomas de Greene      1345   whose father was
21.   Henry Greene      1310   whose father was
22.   Thomas de Greene      1292   who married Lucy la Zouche (b. 1292), whose father was
23.   Eudo la Zouche      1244   who married Millicent de Cantelupe (b. 1250) whose father was
24.   William de Cantelupe   1215   whose father was
25.   William de Cantelupe   1168   who married Millicent Gournay (b. 1170), whose father was
26.   Hugh Gournay      1140   whose father was
27.   Hugues de Gournay      1100   whose father was
28.   Gerard Gournay      1075   who married Edith de Warren (?), whose father was
29.   William de Warren      1040   whose father was
30.   Ralph de Warren      1015   who married Beatrice de Normandie (1020), whose father was
31.   Richard de Normandie   1001   whose father was
32.   Richard de Normandie    963   (“The Good”) whose father was
33.   Richard de Normandie    933   (“Sans Peur”) whose father was
34.   Guillaume de Normandie    895   (“Long Epee”) whose father was
35.   Rollo Rognovaldsson    846   born Maer, Norway, whose father was
36.   Rognvald Eysteinsson    830   (“The Wise”), whose father was
37.   Eystein Ivarsson       800   (“Glumra”), born Maer, Norway, whose father was
38.   Ivar Halfdanssen       770   born Oppland, Norway, whose father was
39.   Halfdan Sveidassen       700   (“The Aged”), whose father was
40.   Sveide Svidrasson       650   (“The Sea King”), whose father was
41.   Svidri Heytsson       600   born Raumsdal, Norway, whose father was
42.   Heytir Gorrson                 c.570   who was also born in Raumsdal.

If you're still awake after all that, maybe you could proffer any comments?

Oh and there's another strand which goes via the Ferrers/Despenser route to Edward the First, and another that goes via the la Zouche/Fergent/de Bretagne/Vermandois/Pepins route to Charlemagne.

Zzzzzzzz...

Stuart

Thanks again,

Stuart

[bedfordshire boy]

Hi Stuart

Thanks for that line, which I’ll investigate. The weak link is probably going to be John Green 1445 ‘s father, plus my doubt about Thomas Earl - The National Burial Index has an age at burial for him as 82 in 1831, and whilst these ages are often inaccurate (often overstated the older the deceased was) it’s the best estimate we have. With no supporting evidence and no baptisms for any children of John and Mary his parentage is not a conclusion I would have arrived at.

The older these lines get the greater the pinches of salt I take with them.


I’ll send you the ascendancy chart offboard – apart from Charlemagne again it also includes Alfred the Great, which is doubtless where I got my culinary skills from.

Whilst the Thomas Cooper may not be in your tree he is part of it as follows

1.   Stuart Earl         1959   whose father was
2.   Gordon John Earl      1929   whose father was
3.   Walter John Earl      1884   whose father was
4.   William Absalom Earl   1865   whose father was
5.   William Earl      1830   whose father was
6.   Thomas Earl      1806   married  Rebecca Roberts whose mother was
7.   Mary Cooper   b 1770 whose father was
8.   Thomas Cooper b c 1745

Regards

David

[octochamp]

More on the Thomas Cooper marriage to Mary Haggisse. Leveritt lists it as mary's first marriage and Thomas ' second (though he hasn't got any detail about the first one). I think you are right, because the dates don't tally at all.

According to Leveritt, Thomas had three children (supposedly by Mary) - Ann (baptised at Henlow 07/09/1650), Elizabeth (baptised at Henlow 1654) and Mary (baptised at Henlow 22/07/1656).

Is it not right that the baptism registers of the time would not give the maiden name of the married mother - so the entry presumably will read "parents: Thomas Cooper and Mary Cooper" - in which case one wonders where Leveritt's marriage to Mary Haggisse comes from - looks like an odd leap of speculation, but he doesn't mention any specific sources, except Ian Gray from whom he seems to have taken quite a lot. Gray is the source of much of this but he doesn't seem to want to reveal his sources to me!

Hope this reassures you. Would that others were more careful with their research...

Stuart

[octochamp]

Oops - I've got the details of Elizabeth's baptism too! The message should have read:

More on the Thomas Cooper marriage to Mary Haggisse. Leveritt lists it as mary's first marriage and Thomas ' second (though he hasn't got any detail about the first one). I think you are right, because the dates don't tally at all.

According to Leveritt, Thomas had three children (supposedly by Mary H) - Ann (baptised at Henlow 07/09/1650), Elizabeth (baptised at Henlow 02/02/1654) and Mary (baptised at Henlow 22/07/1656).

Is it not right that the baptism registers of the time would not give the maiden name of the married mother - so the entry presumably will read "parents: Thomas Cooper and Mary Cooper" - in which case one wonders where Leveritt's marriage to Mary Haggisse comes from - looks like an odd leap of speculation, but he doesn't mention any specific sources, except Ian Gray from whom he seems to have taken quite a lot. Gray is the source of much of this but he doesn't seem to want to reveal his sources to me!

Hope this reassures you. Would that others were more careful with their research...

Stuart

[B.E.]

Back to basics again: I can see Shefford, Southill and Clifton on a modern OS map - they look like reasonably "standard" nucleated Saxon villages, but can anyone build me a nice little pen-picture of what they might have been like in William Earl's days there in the early Victorian era? Was agriculture the basis for virtually all the work? Was the agricultural economy suffering in the area? Is it likely that William left for Long Eaton with his family to find work in a more industrial region?

And what the dickens did straw plaiters actually do?
Cheers,
Brian