Author Topic: Coming across Catholic marriages...  (Read 5881 times)

Offline Valda

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Re: Coming across Catholic marriages...
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 09 May 06 20:17 BST (UK) »
I think for this question you will probably have to ask someone who has converted to Catholicism, or knows their way around Catholic records better than me, but I would expect to see at least a baptismal record (which is only what you find in Anglican records when a non-conformist becomes an Anglican - the oldest example I hold is a baptism for a man of 55).

I'm presuming all the children were by the same parents and it wasn't a second marriage?

Regards

Valda
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Offline forshaw

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Re: Coming across Catholic marriages...
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 09 May 06 20:41 BST (UK) »
Thanks for your reply Valda. Yes, the parents were both the same. The children were actually baptised at 4 different churches. The first at CE and all the rest at 3 RC churches in Preston, as the familiy moved. I can only think they converted, there would be no other reason for an RC couple to marry or baptise a child CE in late 1850s -early 60s. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.
Maybe someone else reading this board, may know if a record was made for conversion to RC.
Pam
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Offline Lesanne

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Re: Coming across Catholic marriages...
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 09 May 06 20:48 BST (UK) »
 This just could be the reason for not finding the marriage of my Frederick Cox and Margaret Howe, about 1892 ish. It is almost certain she was Catholic, being brought up in an orphanage by Nuns in Walthamstow.
                                                               Lesanne.   :-\
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Berks Bucks Oxon= Norris Coxhead Turner Cox Weston Baston Simpson
Kent= Nicholls Mepstead Watts   Mile End=Craze Wood Bennett
Cork=Howe   NZ=Coxhead   Canada=Fenn Cox Turner

Offline Valda

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Re: Coming across Catholic marriages...
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 09 May 06 21:06 BST (UK) »
In 1892 there would be absolutely no impediment for Catholics not to marry in a Catholic church - all perfectly legal, or if one partner was not a Catholic and had no intention of becoming a Catholic marrying in a civil ceremony. They would at least be legal in the eyes of the state.

My grandparents (though this in no way stretched as far as Catholicism - they were in theory low church Anglicans) got their children baptised (or entered into) the nearest church they happened to be living near at the time - which was why my mother the youngest of 11 was the only one to claim she started life as a Quaker.
For high church Anglicans the move to Catholicism would be less problematic.

Regards

Valda
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Offline Timbottawa

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Re: Coming across Catholic marriages...
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 10 May 06 02:15 BST (UK) »
Thanks Valda,

I already consulted with Rye Public Library, who were very helpful, and confirmed that in the early 19th century there was no Catholic church in Rye.  As the other birthplaces for the children were all in hamlets around Rye, I'm sure there would have been no Catholic churches there either.

But you are righ - it would be worth identifying which was the nearest Catholic church to Rye in that era, in case the family made the effort.

Cheers
Tim
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Offline MarieC

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Re: Coming across Catholic marriages...
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 10 May 06 06:49 BST (UK) »
Thanks Valda

That explains the marriage in St Pancras Old Church in 1837.  I'm still puzzled about his brother who married in the Catholic church in 1825 and I still haven't found a C of E marriage for him.  Seems as though that marriage would have been illegal.  There seem to have been no children, so perhaps it wasn't hugely important at the time...

MarieC
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Coming across Catholic marriages...
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 06 November 21 05:56 GMT (UK) »
Along the same lines ... I have a set of 3G-grandparents, both of whom were born in Ireland, and who were therefore almost certainly Catholic, wandering around Sussex in the early 1800s.  I have found at least 4 children whose births are recorded in later census returns as Rye, Iden, Lock, and Pett (all within 10 miles of Rye) between 1801 and 1813.

I've done a little research,and it seems that there were no Catholic churches in or around Rye in those days, and none of these births are recorded by the LDS.  So I'm guessing that baptisms would have taken place in some unofficial place of Catholic worship - perhaps the house of a prominent Catholic.  But then, presumably, there would be no records.

Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this scenario is accurate?


I know this is an ancient thread but I thought I'd suggest answers to a couple of questions.

England was a mission country for the Catholic church.
There were unofficial R.C. places of worship if there were enough Catholics to gather and if there was a priest in the area or visiting. It may have been in a house, inn, barn, room above a shop, if the owner was Catholic or sympathetic. There were "Mass rocks" in Ireland, used in penal times.
Catholic church buildings hadn't long been legalised when that family turned up in Sussex.
"Riding priests" travelled around to minister to their flock in their mission area.
Custom was to baptise a baby at home soon after birth; the priest, if there was one, visited the house. Priest may have had a notebook to record baptisms or he may not. He may have had one and lost it. Their registers were small notebooks which would fit into a coat pocket, a satchel or saddlebag. Those begun prior to 1837 might contain "illegal" marriages. Some doubled as account books or general notebooks if it was the priest's only notebook. 
There may have been no priest. A baby or child who was thought to be in danger of death could be baptised by anyone.
A priest cousin of my 2xGGF from Lancashire, the R.C. stronghold of England, spent most of his ministry in the South of England, from 1840s. He used to say Mass in houses where there was no church. When there were enough parishioners to justify it, he looked for a site for a church. He was vicar-general (bishop's deputy who oversaw admin & legal stuff & commissioned architects) of Southwark Diocese, of which Sussex was then part.   

The children were actually baptised at 4 different churches. The first at CE and all the rest at 3 RC churches in Preston, as the familiy moved. I can only think they converted, there would be no other reason for an RC couple to marry or baptise a child CE in late 1850s -early 60s. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.
Maybe someone else reading this board, may know if a record was made for conversion to RC.

 

A few Catholic couples continued to marry in C. of E. after 1837. It was simple as no registrar was needed. A pair of my R.C. ancestors married at a Preston C. of E. parish church in 1843.
Some Catholic churches had conversion registers. An adult might have had a conditional baptism which was entered in the ordinary baptism register.
It may have been a mixed marriage. They may have been Catholics who lapsed and then returned to the church, perhaps when eldest child was ready for school.
Cowban

Offline forshaw

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Re: Coming across Catholic marriages...
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 06 November 21 17:02 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for this info Maiden Stone. I hadn’t thought about England being considered a mission area for Catholics priests. You conjure up quite a picture of lone priests rambling around on horseback, looking for a flock and any suitable place to worship. I agree in the 1800s, some of R/C faith would have married C/E. I suppose it was easier and probably less expensive too, not having to employ a registrar to record their wedding, making a marriage legal.
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