Two mothers-in-law? Running out of ideas!

[Heather D]

Apologies in advance for the long post, but I have a feeling I'm missing something with this problem and wonder if anyone has any ideas?

Michael Driscoll married Ellen Murphy in Southwark 1847. Both came from Cork and Ellen's father was listed as Denis Murphy labourer.

In 1851 they have this lady living with them -
HO107 1563 472 22
Mary Ann Murphy mother in law widow 64 Ireland

But in 1861 we have -
RG9 329 158 54
Hannah Kingston mother-in-law widow 76 Ireland Cork

For a long time I believed they were the same person and looked in vain for a marriage of a Murphy to a Kingston between 1851 and 1861. Then I found this 1851 census entry, which I believe is the same Mrs. Kingston who was with Michael and Ellen in 1861

1851 HO107 1563 97 36
1 New Court St Geo the Martyr
Daniel Kingston head 60 bricklayers lab ireland
Norah Kingston wife 66 Ireland
Annie Broderick niece unmar 39
Bartholomew Pompett nephew unmar 20

This one ticks the boxes. Michael and Ellen used the Irish naming system for their sons at least. Their first daughter they registered as Hannorah. Under the Irish system this should be the name of the wife's mother.

I have the baptisms for some of their children and they include sponsors Daniel Kingston and John Pomphrett (the Bartholomew above was living with his brother John in 1861).

I have found a death for Daniel Kingston in Southwark 1856, and a death for Honora Kingston in Southwark 1869 age 84.

Soooo....IF this is Ellen's mother, who the heck is the Mary Ann Murphy living with them in 1851? I really can't think where to go next with this one! 

Heather

[behindthefrogs]

In those days mother in law more often meant step mother.  That should give you another angle.

David

[Heather D]

Thank you David, I hadn't thought of that

So maybe Hannah/Hannorah was the second wife of Michael's father, who then died and she married a Kingston? I suppose the possibilities are endless

I'm really going to have to order those death certs I think and see if they give me any clues. If I tell you that the Mary Ann Murphy in 1851 is my one and only sighting of a family relative outside their immediate household you can understand how tough this line is!

[trish251]

Hi Heather

I think I have had too much of Christmas to think logically at the minute - but my first thought was  -  I have two mother-in-laws - because I have been married twice. Is it possible that your lass was married twice? I haven't looked at your data to determine if this is feasible - sorry

Trish

[Heather D]

Thanks Trish,

I know that post-christmas foggy feeling all too well

But Michael and Ellen were bachelor/spinster on marriage and so it's unlikely.

Heather

[JAP]

Heather,

Details (e.g. bachelor/spinster) on marriage certificates can't always be relied on.

Interestingly, there's the marriage on FreeBMD of an Ellen KINGSTON, Jun qtr 1844 in Southwark St George - and on the same page is a Daniel MURPHY ...

It is tempting to think that this might be your Ellen (as KINGSTON) and that Mary Ann MURPHY was the mother of Daniel MURPHY and lived with them; that Daniel MURPHY died; that Ellen re-married to Michael DRISCOLL as Ellen MURPHY, and that Daniel's mother then lived with Michael & Ellen DRISCOLL and was recorded in 1851 as Michael's mother-in-law (too complex for them to think of a more precise description!).  Then between 1851 and 1861 Hanorah/Norah KINGSTON was widowed and came to live with Michael & Ellen, and was (properly) recorded as Michael DRISCOLL's mother-in-law in 1861 (I think that the 1861 actually says Hanorah).  Also that perhaps Mary Ann MURPHY had died between 1851 and 1861 - or had gone to live elsewhere.

However, this leaves one big problem - Ellen's father on her marriage certificate being shown as Denis MURPHY.  I can think of a way round that but it all starts to get too complex (re-marriage of Ellen's mother, Ellen sometimes known as MURPHY and sometimes as KINGSTON, Ellen KINGSTON/MURPHY marrying a MURPHY ...).

In the 1851, Michael and Ellen have 2 sons, Patrick 3 and Dennis 11 months - Patrick perhaps named after Michael's father and Dennis after Ellen's father?  And there's no son named Daniel (after Daniel KINGSTON) in the 1851 or 1861 or 1871 ...

Somehow I think I've just added to the fog!

Perhaps when the 1841 census becomes available it will throw light on the situation?

JAP

[Heather D]

Interesting thoughts JAP!

I hadn't seen that 1844 marriage, but it might be worth a punt to see if they are related (this is where we start wishing for a lottery win!).

I'm not convinced Ellen was married before. Ellen was only 21 at marriage and I have baptisms for 6 of the children at St George's Cathedral Southwark. Being Catholic, the mother's maiden name was noted - Murphy every time. Also have 3 birth certs and no mention of another surname, but I'm keeping an open mind. In fact I'm clutching at anything at the moment!

You're right that the name Daniel doesn't figure in their children or children's children, but the name Dennis has been passed down the generations ...right down to my brother and myself who have middle names Denise/Dennis So I'm fairly certain Denis Murphy existed, just unsure as to when he died.

Thanks, Heather

[Heather D]

Just updating this one for any passing relatives and interested parties

I have found them in 1841

1841 HO107 1085 2 45
Stum? Court White Street Southwark St George
Daniel Kingston 40 labourer Ireland
Honnora 45 I
Michael Drisscoll 21 labourer I
Bridget Horan 25 I
Margaret Horan 2 Y
Daniel Rearden 20 labour I
John Fletcher 20 painter I


So it appears that Honorah Kingston was connected to the Driscoll side - possibly step mother, or even mother. So I'm now assuming that Mary Ann Murphy in 1851 was a correct entry and she was Ellen's mother.

[pollyfan]

You may have already solved this by now, but Hanorah Kingston was the mother of Michael Driscoll. She married Daniel Kingston when Michael's father, Patrick Driscoll, died. Mary Ann Murphy was Ellen Murphy's mother--Ellen Murphy and Michael Driscoll were married in 1847.

Hope this helps!