SKELCY/SKELCHER Surname

[avm228]

That's terrific - many thanks to you and also to Carol.

Were the daughter's (given) initials E.M., F.E. or R.M. by any chance?

Anna

Modified: scratch that about the initials - I'm barking up the wrong tree!

[chris_49]

What I found puzzling is that in 1881, 1891 and 1901 SkelSeys were found in a variety of counties (Middlesex, Yorkshire, Durham, Wiltshire etc) whilst the Skelcey and Skelcy variants were confined to central Warwickshire. You'd think that the spelling confusion could arise anywhere. Could it be that the other Skelseys pronounce their name Skelzey (compare Wolsey, Halsey, Ramsey etc) and the pronunciation changed in Cubbington and district because of the Skelsey/Skelcher merger? Any Skelseys around with the "z" sound?

I don't know whether it's the done thing to reply to your own post, but I realise now why the non-Warwickshire ones are consistently Skelsey while the Warwickshire ones are so variable. It's all a matter of literacy. Those who stayed behind tended to be semi-literate farm workers who, though they could probably sign their names, left the writing and spelling to the enumerator, which is why so many of them have different spellings on different censuses.

Those who left the area, however, took up professional occupations and were capable of insisting on the particular spelling they thought was right - this includes all the ones in Northern England and some of the London ones - the unrelated London ones including the Wiltshire ones might pronounce it Skelzey for all I know.

Chris

[BushInn1746]

Have you come across please any "Kelsey" or "Skelsey" wills or documents with references to the places of Stockingford; Nuneaton Parish; Ansley (Anceley), Warwickshire, or the "Paget" name (1680 to 1780)?

Various Kelsey's (Wm; Benjamin and John) occupied lands of Sir Willoughby (Willughby) Aston in the Stockingford Survey of 1690.

Joseph Kelsey and Joshua Kelsey are also mentioned in Lord Paget's (also Lord of Nuneaton and Stockingford Manors) Arrears of 1735 and 1746 Survey respectively.

Thanks
Mark Hood

[BushInn1746]

What I found puzzling is that in 1881, 1891 and 1901 SkelSeys were found in a variety of counties (Middlesex, Yorkshire, Durham, Wiltshire etc) whilst the Skelcey and Skelcy variants were confined to central Warwickshire. You'd think that the spelling confusion could arise anywhere. Could it be that the other Skelseys pronounce their name Skelzey (compare Wolsey, Halsey, Ramsey etc) and the pronunciation changed in Cubbington and district because of the Skelsey/Skelcher merger? Any Skelseys around with the "z" sound?

I don't know whether it's the done thing to reply to your own post, but I realise now why the non-Warwickshire ones are consistently Skelsey while the Warwickshire ones are so variable. It's all a matter of literacy. Those who stayed behind tended to be semi-literate farm workers who, though they could probably sign their names, left the writing and spelling to the enumerator, which is why so many of them have different spellings on different censuses.

Those who left the area, however, took up professional occupations and were capable of insisting on the particular spelling they thought was right - this includes all the ones in Northern England and some of the London ones - the unrelated London ones including the Wiltshire ones might pronounce it Skelzey for all I know.

Chris

I have the same "Joshua Kelsey" spelt in another document (but same landowner) as "Joshua Skelsey", so I believe it was down to pronounciation, or in the case of landowner documents the surveyor's clerk or writer may have been out of County, in another area and used the other spelling they were familiar with.

I have photocopy Lord Paget (Henry Earl of Uxbridge) Rental documents which refers to Joshua Kelsey's cottages and inclosure at Stockingford. However 40 years later when in Tomkinson ownership they are called "Kelsalls Cottages and Inclosures" in the Tomkinson Rentals, with reference to the previous landowner the Earl of Uxbridge. The later Tomkinson Rental document was from Dorfold Hall in Cheshire and likely written in Cheshire where they were familiar with the place Kelsall and the surname Kelsall.

The Tomkinson Rental of Dorfold Hall should have been copying the name "Kelsey" from the 1765 Deed of Sale from Lord Paget to James Tomkinson of Dorfold.

So "Kelsey" seems to vary where you live as well, but I don't know how they got "Kelsall". I have corroborated the documents with others and they were referring to the same buildings.

Mark Hood

[chris_49]

I have the same "Joshua Kelsey" spelt in another document (but same landowner) as "Joshua Skelsey", so I believe it was down to pronounciation, or in the case of landowner documents the surveyor's clerk or writer may have been out of County, in another area and used the other spelling they were familiar with.

I have photocopy Lord Paget (Henry Earl of Uxbridge) Rental documents which refers to Joshua Kelsey's cottages and inclosure at Stockingford. However 40 years later when in Tomkinson ownership they are called "Kelsalls Cottages and Inclosures" in the Tomkinson Rentals, with reference to the previous landowner the Earl of Uxbridge. The later Tomkinson Rental document was from Dorfold Hall in Cheshire and likely written in Cheshire where they were familiar with the place Kelsall and the surname Kelsall.

The Tomkinson Rental of Dorfold Hall should have been copying the name "Kelsey" from the 1765 Deed of Sale from Lord Paget to James Tomkinson of Dorfold.

So "Kelsey" seems to vary where you live as well, but I don't know how they got "Kelsall". I have corroborated the documents with others and they were referring to the same buildings.

Mark Hood

Hello Mark, I'm afraid my answer is variously "no" and "don't know". I saw some North Warwickshire Skelseys first on records at the Mormon site familysearch, and that they seemed to die out around the same time as my mid-Warwickshire Skelceys appear, so I thought - they must have moved.

It didn't turn out like that. My Skelceys seem to have originally been Skelchers - an Oxfordshire/south Warwickshire surname, and seemed to change to Skelcey (hence the "C" spelling) possibly under the influence of those who went to Coventry and encountered Skelseys. See this thread passim.

I don't know what happened to the North Warwickshire Skelseys but what I can tell you is that, over and over again in the history of my branch of Skelcey, someone records them, especially in censuses, as Kelsey which is by far the commoner name. A case of enumerator knows best, I suppose, or a mishearing when the recorded one has a carry-over first name like Thomas. Sometimes the S gets detached as a middle initial. Usually, next time they pop up they are back to Skelsey, the exception being some whose father died when they were very young and whose mother remarried.

I can't prove it happened to the North Warwickshire lot, but I did come across at least one example which I didn't record - a Benjamin Skelsey who became Kelsey. Oddly enough, the name Skelcher seems to be replaced in Northants by Kelcher, so possiby a parallel development.

Occasional Skelceys seen in North Warks are sometimes mid-Warks Skelceys who've moved - the family that go up to Warton, and the family that spend time in Withybrook, for example.

As for Kelsall, as you say that's a place near Chester and that surname seems to have been much commoner in Cheshire and neighbouring counties. I expect that entry was just a mistake, as you surmise. We've found our lot as Skeley, Spelsey, Skebsey, Shilsey - but never that.

I'm willing to be proved wrong on any of the above, any contributions gratefully received.

Chris

[BushInn1746]

Thanks Chris

I expect some of the North Warwickshire Kelsey's moved away, died off and the females married.

The Joshua Kelsey of Stockingford who occupied the inclosure of land on "Nuneaton Common" at Stockingford (alias Stockingford Common) that I am interested in had quite a few children from 1694 onward.

Nuneaton Parish records indicate Joshua Kelsey marries Dorothy ?? (might read Widdow; Wisddom or even Meddow) 26 July 1693. Joshua and Dorothy Kelsey are first recorded as residing at Stockingford in 1699 when William a son is baptised. In 1702 they have a son Joshua baptised and are still at Stockingford.

Joshua Kelsey of Stockingford is recorded on an inclosure in the Rental of 1746 as having just under 3 acres inclosed. Joshua Kelsey (or son of Joshua Kelsey) is then shown again in 1765 in the landowners Deeds as holding 3 acres when the land changes ownership.

There are 3 other baptisms recorded apparently for Nuneaton (on IGI - not verified) as follows; George Kelsey March 1716; Sarah June 1721 & a Dorothy Kelsey July 1725 whose parents were Joshua and Sarah Kelsey.

Please does anyone have any information such as a will, regarding the Joseph Kelsey who was buried at Kenilworth in March 1740?

Or come across any Joshua Kelsey; Jeremiah Kelsey; John Kelsey; William Kelsey; Elizabeth Kelsey; Thomas Kelsey; or Joseph Kelsey from Nuneaton Stockingford suddenly popping up in another Warwickshire area 18th Century please, perhaps in a will with a reference to Stockingford?

19th Century
I note a "John Kelsey Cooke" mentioned as owning property on Plough Hill, Stockingford (now Plough Hill, Galley Common) on an unused 1890 Mortgage Indenture, apparently the property was West of the Plough Inn.


Regards Mark

[lumps1987]

Has anyone managed to find a link between the Skelcher/Skelcy families in Cubbington and those in Oxford, especially North Newington, Broughton, Hornton, Cropedey?

I have John Skelcher (1810) marrying Mary Dumbleton (1810).  They had George (1834) who married Mary Prichard and they had Walter Daniel Skelcher who was my ggrandad.  I have managed to find John Skelcher (1810) parents William Skelcher(1871) and Mary Leadbetter and think that William's parents may be William Skelcher and Elizabeth Denty but this is only guess work.  I would like to try and find out who William(1871) siblings were and obviously trace those Skelchers.  Went to Oxford record office on Friday and although the girl behind the counter was helpful the actual records themselves were not so.  Trying to work from the Bishops Trascrips and pick out which William belongs to which branch of the family when no father or address is listed has proved to be a big problem.  I have looked at all the census records but by 1841 all the people I need to sort out have married and are not living with parents so again another dead end. 

Has anyone managed to link all the Skelcher families and be able to point me in a more useful direction than bishop transcripts??? Any help/advice gratefully received.  Karen

[chris_49]

Hello Karen, sorry for not replying sooner but I was waiting to let someone else have a go.

I don't have any serious links between the Cubbington Skelchers and the North Oxon ones. In early days most other Warwickshire Skelchers are found in Mollington so are obviously part of the Banbury district kin, or are in the very far south of the county..

As you'll have read, most of the Cubbington Skelchers became Skelc(e)ys. No one has come up with a compelling reason why this should be so*, but either it's true or the Cubbington Skelchers died off or moved away and were replaced by Skelcys of unknown origin with coincidentally similar names and birthdates, who were born in Cubbington unrecorded.

One Skelcher who missed the name-change, probably because he moved away from Cubbington at the crucial time, was William Skelcher who settled in Hampton Lucy, having lived in Coventry. We don't know who his parents are but he was born in Cubbington about 1800, according to the 1851 on an entry that Ancestry has obviously transcribed as something else, because searching for it doesn't find it ( (HO 107 piece 2074 folio 831 page 1). Various descendants of his turn up all over the place - those that work as gamekeepers being particularly mobile.

The assumption is that the original Joseph Skelcher b about 1721 may have originated in North Oxon but who can say. One of his descendants Sarah, the daughter of William "Skelcher" Skelcey, did marry a John Dumbleton of Brailes about this time but I don't know if there's a connection.

Later Skelcher arrivals in mid-Warwickshire do tend to be born in the Banbury surrounds but some are unaccounted for. Have you noticed that in Northants the name Kelcher is commoner, which mirrors the tendency of Skelcey to become the (commoner) Kelsey, especially on the whim of the enumerator and particularly if the first name elides with its own S - cf Thomas or James.

The only suggestion I have other than Bishops transcripts prior to 1841 is parish records. They can be pretty unreadable too. There are some Skelchers on the IGI at familysearch.com


I know this doesn't answer many of your questions but I hope someone finds it of interest.

All best and Good Luck, Chris

*various theories on this: they couldn't spell so guessed, the enumerator hadn't heard of Skelcher but knew Skelcey, the name was originally German (Schelecher turns up a couple of times) and they changed it to avoid prejudice (though you'd think at the time anti-French sentiment would have been more likely) the brothers Thomas, John and possibly Joseph had spent time in North Warks where Skelcher is unknown but Skelcey occurs, so they acquired the names there and when they got back persuaded others to follow - which is why William "Skelcher" Skelcey dithers - christening his kids with both names, though they all end up as Skelcey (and some later become Kelsey but that's another story). One reason might have been because they found the name more euphonious than Skelcher, which does sound a bit awkward to me.

The North Warwickshire Skelceys seem to either go to Kelsey or disappear. It's just possible one or some of them end up in Cubbington, but I can't think what there was to draw them there, and one argument against is that this lot use a number of forenames - like Mark, Abraham and Benjamin - that are simply not found in Cubbington - there's a paucity of forenames with the boys nearly all called William John James George Thomas Henry or Joseph, with some Richard Edward or David and the odd Biblican oddity such as Imri (the forename of a local squire) or Enoch (named for a Mr Enock who married one of the sisters). The girls are mostly Mary Ann Hannah Sarah Emma Eliza(beth) Harriet  Selina or (H)Ellen. Towards the end of the century they run out of names and get more inventive.

The first appearance of the form Skelcy in Cubbington is in 1807 when three births are registered, two to unwed mothers who match Skelcher sisters, and the third to a Thomas who doesn't. (None of these three children are ever reliably found again.)  However there are Skelcher references after that including the marriage of Elizabeth Skelcher to John Enoch, and two payers of the Window Tax in 1817 - John and Thomas can only be the two old patriarchs at this stage, the others of those names are either too young or have left the village. However, by 1841 no-one is using the name in Cubbington.

 

[BushInn1746]

Hello Karen

If you are trying to check familiy relationships, wills held at the Diocesan Record Offices can be an excellent source. Although you must bear in mind that not everyone left a will or went to admin', but it is really rewarding to find a relevant Will which links the family and proves relationships! Also it can occasionly be possible to find out if they left property, which brings me onto property deeds.

If you are very, very lucky you might find property Deeds have been deposited in Record Offices although a lenghty search is required through sometimes boxes of uncatalogued deeds deposited by Solicitors (also check A2A online, but it is not a complete list of Record Offices holdings or a complete breakdown of collections in some cases) Some records are still to be listed.

The London Gazette is searchable online free of charge now back to 1753 which records people who were made Brancrupt, disputes of Wills which went to Court, Businesses dissolved and people in the Couty Gaol including the Parish or place in the Parish where they came from. People who receive military awards and promotions.

Pre 1841 Enclosure Award Maps quite often give names in their Schedules of the persons occupying land or land owners, unless parts of the land was inclosed previously, in which case only the principal landowner might be shown who sub-let the land and buildings to others, therefore some may not named in the Award Schedule which usually accompanies a map, but they might be mentioned in Landowners Rentals or Surveys.

Early principal landowners Rentals sometimes confirm (even where property is rented) how the land passes to the widow or Son or grandson. 18th Century Landowners and their earlier records could be in other County Record Offices where the family seat (or their main property) was, as some landowners owned Estates, land, cottages and houses in other Counties. Sometimes the old Estate records became the property of the family whom they sold the principal house to and they kept the collection, or have sent it to an Archives.

I was stuck several times with my Public House research prior to 1841 and severely stuck before 1805 but managed now to trace reliably back to 1746 when the Inn changed hands, so the earliest part was there before 1746, which I have now corroborated with a secondary set of records found over 100 miles away at a University, but you do need an inquiring mind.

Regarding mortgaged property belonging to a registered company, if you know the formal company name and the property was mortgaged it can be traced using Companies House Records. A set of fiche with Mortgage Registers and Charges who they purchased the property off with the vendors address along with brief property descriptions with Company Accounts and Directors cost just £9.00. These can be very interesting and useful if you are tracing buildings such as Public Houses which all belonged to one Brewery Company, £9.00 is good value as some sets of fiche go back over 100 years.

Despite the records that have been destroyed, its amazing what is still out there and even local history groups and the local County Record Office were unaware of Estate records for my home county, which are held elsewhere (in addition to those of the same family in my own County Records Office).

I had a shock to find out that fields at the end of my close were owned by an Isle of Man based company in the early 20th century.

So it is amazing what you can find before 1841, but checking Wills if they left one or it went to admin', at the Diocesan Record Office for your Diocesan area (which in my case is in several neighbouring Counties of Lichfield and Worcester is the other I believe) is a must. I have also used wills to find deaths which do not seem to appear in the actual Parish Burial Register.

Also try the Card Indexes of the nearest Local History Section at a Library. Also Libraries have a lot of printed material submitted by people who may have traced a member of your families occupation 100's of years ago! Some Libraries have acquired photocopies of local records which are held elsewhere.

Mark