Author Topic: Blue Blood  (Read 16003 times)

Offline Sahara

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 08 May 05 13:21 BST (UK) »
Our family myth is that we are descended from the (now defunct) Austrian Royal Family and my great-aunt has a dinner service to prove it (which I have never seen!).

Of course, it is proving hard (near impossible) to push back through my Italian ancestry into my Austrian ancestry and so I am nowhere near proving this. I cannot even get proper information on my great-grandarents let alone any further back.

Maybe that's a good thing though - it's a nice family myth to hold on to  :)

Offline bonjedward

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #28 on: Friday 20 May 05 15:22 BST (UK) »
Just noticed this thread. I posted some mathematical speculations last year on the subject (see below) - we are in fact all descended from Charlemagne (and everyone else back then).



It's been said that all those with Scottish ancestry are descended from King Malcolm Canmore ("big head") III (1031-1093); that all with English ancestry are descendants of King Edward I of England (1272-1307), and that all with the slightest trace of European blood in them are the descendants of the Emperor Charlemagne (742-814).

I'd bet we all would like to find some aristocratic ancestor, irrespective of our attitudes to the aristocracy and our political opinions - it is after all, the only way to get further back than the 16th century.

A Danish neighbour recently showed me her family genealogy (privately-published - with heavy wooden bindings - in the 1950's), tracing her family back to Danish medieval royalty, something she was understandably proud of, perhaps especially as her family in recent generations has been smallholders and factory workers. I unfortunately offered the opinion that such royal ancestry was probably more common than we often imagine. The lady was not amused!

This led me to some arithmetical speculation.
Assume an average 30-year generation (women giving birth between the ages of 20 and 40). The earliest records of the aristocracy seem to be around the 8th century, 13 centuries ago. That's about 40 generations. 2 to the power 40 is over one million million (i.e a British billion, if anyone still uses them) ancestors. Certainly a lot more than the 6 thousand million alive today - or then, of course!

Let's assume of the sake of simplicity that all a given individual's ancestors came from Scotland. I haven't been able to find population estimates for Scotland in the Dark Ages, though the population of Roman Britain in the 4th century is estimated to have been 1.5 million.
Say 100,000, and assume for the sake of argument they all had descendants. Then on average, each person alive then would appear 11 million times each on our modern genealogist's family tree. Some more, some less, but not even rigid social structures could prevent any individual alive then from eventually contributing to the ancestry of everyone in that country. Only complete geographical isolation could have done that, and in the Dark Ages some people travelled a lot more than is often imagined - eg. Vikings travelled to Central Asia where they traded with Arabs, Africans and Chinese.

So we really are all related, and at a much more recent date than the clan mothers and fathers suggested by DNA research (which can only trace direct maternal and paternal lines). And the numbers involved indicate the limits of genealogy - we're probably lucky that the church records don't go further back than 1550!

However, there's not much point in it if you can't prove the link and find that slender branch or two that suddenly opens up to reveal countless and  lengthy well-documentend branches of the nobility. So what are the chances? Let's assume all Scottish church records went back to 1550 (no, don't laugh - we're assuming 'best case') That's 15 generations, i.e there are 32768 ancestors at that level. I'm guessing the population of Scotland at the time was around 500,000, so those ancestors constituted 6% of the population - at best: even here, the same people probably will turn up in different branches, what with people marrying 'double cousins' and the like.
What percentage of the population were aristocrats (i.e. those who recorded their ancestry)? 0.5% is a pure guess - so 2500 aristocrats out of 500,000. Pick an individual living in 1550 at random, and do this 32768 times, corresponding to your ancestors 15 generations ago.
We can say at random, since we're assuming we know nothing so far about those ancestors.
The probability that any given individual in Scotland in 1550 is an aristocrat is 2500/500000 i.e the probability that the individual is not is 497500/500000. The probability that none of the 32768 'random' individuals are aristocrats is 497500/500000 multiplied by itself 32768 times.
(actually you should subtract one from the 500000 each time, since that indivudual is no longer 'in the running', but lets keep it simple).
497500/500000 to the power 32768, a very small number indeed. Even if we took only 1000 ancestors, the chance of none of them being an aristocrat is under 1% (again, assuming the 'randomness' provided by having no knowledge of these ancestors - you can't just pick 1000 more recent ancestors and assume the same, since you presumably know more about them). The chance of an aristocrat being among the 32768 is therefore extremely close to 100%.

So not only is is absolutely certain that all of us here researching our Scottish ancestry are descendants of medieval royalty (and everyone else who lived then), but there is a very high chance of finding an aristocratic branch leading back before 1550 if only you can follow most of your ancestry back 15 generations using the Old Parish Records.
Researching: Towers family of Paisley; Argyll: Carmichael, McQueen; W. Lothian: Aitken, Smeal, Cunningham, Brash, Easton; Stirlingshire: Bruce, Henderson, Galloway;  Midlothian: Gillis, Philp, Turner; Ayrshire: Robertson, McMurren (also County Down), Bone, Eaglesham, Scoffield, Frew, McLatchie;  Moray: Rennie, Stronach;   Donegal, Derry: Douglas, Wray, Steen;  Bermuda: Outerbridge, Seon

Offline jinks

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #29 on: Friday 20 May 05 19:57 BST (UK) »
My Friends Grandmother remembers going to
her Grandfather's funeral in Wales as a child.

But when she went back years later the grave and
any burial record could not be found.

He did change his name because he was illegitimate
and child to a maid and somone with rather a lot of
money (some sort of prince of wales). We have found the possible father on the census but she was told to get any records from her great great
grandfather she has to have the records unsealed.

Does this still happen.

Jinks
Ashton Lancashire
Eccles Lancashire
Fletcher Lancashire
Harwood Church/Darwen
Jackson Staffordhire/Worcestershire
Jenkinson Cockerham
Marsden Hoghton Lancashire
Mercer Lancashire/Yorkshire
Pye Wyresdale
Singleton Lancashire
Swarbrick  Longridge
Watt Scotland/Lancashire

Offline alcrighton

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #30 on: Friday 20 May 05 21:12 BST (UK) »
Quote
Quote from: Paul E on Sunday 08 May 05 00:37 BST (UK)
No disrespect to those of you who can (or wish to) claim blue blood ... but the day I encounter any member of the in-bred British royalty in my own direct ancestry is probably the day I'll want to hang up my researching cap!   

Paul


Hmm.  I knew I'd seen that cap somewhere before :o
Crighton, Dundee & London<br />Woodgates, Bath, Devon & London<br />Curtis, Nottinghamshire & Islington<br />Maker, Cornwall & London<br /><br />Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Paul E

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #31 on: Friday 20 May 05 23:30 BST (UK) »
 ;D ;D ;D  Nice one, Al!

(Notice, too, that Eddie is wearing a kilt - obviously trying to confound David Douglas's empirical calculations! :))

Paul

Offline D ap D

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #32 on: Monday 23 May 05 14:44 BST (UK) »
Now a nice solid Cromwellian - that would be different 

As it happens, Ollie C's grandfather is one of my direct forebears. (me being descended along a female line). His family tree is quite readily available on-line. "Great" I thought - "at least one line that should be easy to trace. " And what happens? he turns out to be yet another Williams from south Wales. Another one for the collection.
Stuck with:
William Williams of Llanllyfni
John Jones in Llanelli
Evan Evans in Caio
David Davies of Llansanffraid
Evans: Caio/Carms
Jones: CDG, DEN

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Nor do I think that any other nation than this of Wales, or any other tongue, whatever may hereafter come to pass, shall on the day of the great reckoning before the Most High Judge, answer for this corner of the earth": The Old Man of Pencader to Henry II

Offline suttontrust

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #33 on: Monday 23 May 05 15:03 BST (UK) »
My surname is Godden, and years ago I read that it was a variant of Godwin.  Now, King Harold, rightful king of England, was Harold Godwinson, son of Earl Godwin.  So I used to reckon, especially when I was teaching history, that I am descended from King Harold and if it hadn't been for William the Conqueror I would be 400 and somethingth in line to the throne.
Godden in East Sussex, mainly Hastings area.
Richards in Lea, Gloucestershire, then London.
Williamson in Leith, Vickers in Nottingham.
Webb in Bildeston and Colchester.
Wesbroom in Kirby le Soken.
Ellington in Harwich.
Park, Palmer, Segar and Peartree in Kersey.

Offline Yasmina4

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #34 on: Thursday 03 December 15 15:55 GMT (UK) »
What an entertaining read

Offline LordVader

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 22 October 22 00:06 BST (UK) »
This is a very interesting read even stumbling upon it many years later. I think the original post touched upon a very credible issue that unfortunately still plagues the internet with false ancestries.

I have noticed that people in the US love themselves quite a lot with their bigger than life personalities, but many seem to have separation anxiety issues from Europe and strive to pursue their connection to Englands elite, because it is another thing to brag about.

This separation issue to many either by intent or by being lazy in their research does lead to many false ancestries littering the internet.

I note how one commenter mentions that many were persecuted by religion and were second sons, yet this glosses over the forgotten history that many thousands of these "immigrants" and "founding fathers" were common criminals. Before Australia where did the British send their criminals? It is hard to imagine to people that the original convict colony was the USA. As a result many who cannot trace their lineage were either from poorer common families or were convicts of which documents to help identify them are few and far in between to connect to families in Europe. The chances are if your immigrant ancestor was from a noble family, there should be evidence to prove just that. What the US offered was a new life and a new narrative.

I have battled over the years with the spam of false ancestry many of which is unfortunately published in books all over the US. These books were written about 100 years ago by frauds and con-men and I do need to say that many in the US are willing to take information at face value without stopping to think and question 'is that is correct?'. When an issue is address and a person is educated in line with the evidence (or lack thereof) another will come out with the same disproven theory and start publishing their false ancestry all over the internet starting the education process again.

Today with celebrities we also battle the tabloids who with (and I stress) the bare minimum of research will 'stumble' upon some disproven false ancestry to generate a story and suddenly it is published all around the world. Of course, these people will then start citing because it's in the media so it must be true and the people of the US have a habit of circulating unsupported information.

For instance take the recent Kim Kardashian claim that she is related to Conor McGregor. First to note was that this story came from a Scottish tabloid clearly target towards a US audience as click-bait. The key to this claim was a Thomas MackGehee in the US was the son of Patrick macGregor, Cheiftain of the Children of the Mist. This claim extends from the "genealogist" Charles Henry Browning (now considered a fraud) who first made the claim was based on family letters. Problem was that the letters Browning cited never mention any MackGehee/macGregor connection and in fact were written in the 1750s when the claim centres around a son of Patrick macGregor who would have been born in the early 1600s. Disproven by evidence, logic, Clan Gregor and even YDNA, this story preys upon the US people's gullibility and to this day the Scottish tabloid author will not disclose his research notes to support his published claim. So no, Kim Kardashian is not a proven macGregor, nor is there any proven connection to Conor McGregor whose ancestry is not know to actually connect to the Chieftain's paternal lineage keeping in mind not all of the same Clan surname shared the same paternal lineage as evident of the Clan Gregor YDNA project.

Along the line of claiming descent from virgins, there are those out there who will believe that Kim Kardashian could claim her rightful place as Queen of Scotland a premise that is not only stupid beyond belief, but even if her connection was true, there are many hundreds if not millions of people who would be first in line well before her, essentially a good portion of Europe.