Widow/Widowers time period before remarrying in the 1700s

[chris_49]

See also thread about Frederick George Hirons - widowed and quickly remarried 4 times in 7 years!

[Stanwix England]

When I saw your post it reminded me that I read somewhere that in medieval times, some widows were obligated to remarry or they could face being stripped of their inheritance.

I went a-googling in order to find something to back me up and I came across this little essay which is available free online.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pN-GTGzOngAC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=in+medieval+england+widows+forced+to+remarry&source=bl&ots=blR0lV5AJO&sig=FsgFpfW7VcpV3nQghib5vSqyQzo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi4spTP_Z7JAhWD8RQKHbpnBlgQ6AEIPzAF#v=onepage&q=in%20medieval%20england%20widows%20forced%20to%20remarry&f=false

It seems that the religious position in England on people remarrying after marriage was always complicated but that men were encouraged to do so more than women and were treated differently. Some in the church recognised the economic necessity or remarriage too.

I appreciate that I'm talking about medieval times, but these are deep seated cultural attitudes and I assume they persisted for a long time.

[terpstrajf]

Hi jonwicken,

Did you ever decide definitively which Thomas Hopkins married which Ann? My interest is focused on this family as it is also in the lines which I am presently researching. I agree with your comments suggesting Thomas senior was the one who married Ann widow Slade nee Stuckey/Tuckey. The next puzzle in this line is which of the children Baptised in Curry Rivel following 1744 belong to which Thomas/Ann. Jane Hopkins baptised 1746 March 16 could be child of Thomas sr. named after his first wife, or possibly child of Thomas jr named after his mother.

[jonwicken]

Hi jonwicken,

Did you ever decide definitively which Thomas Hopkins married which Ann? My interest is focused on this family as it is also in the lines which I am presently researching. I agree with your comments suggesting Thomas senior was the one who married Ann widow Slade nee Stuckey/Tuckey. The next puzzle in this line is which of the children Baptised in Curry Rivel following 1744 belong to which Thomas/Ann. Jane Hopkins baptised 1746 March 16 could be child of Thomas sr. named after his first wife, or possibly child of Thomas jr named after his mother.

Hello yes, I feel I have unravelled them somewhat. I actually visited Curry Rivel and went to the church last year and it was great to go there!

So I believe the following:

Thomas Hopkins (1693–after 1747 no burial found) married firstly Jane Maine|Hopkins (before 1698–1744) in 1716 on North Curry.

Their son was Thomas Hopkins (1720–1799)

Thomas Hopkins senior married secondly Ann Read|Stuckey|Slade|Hopkins (c1710/14–1747), widow of John Stuckey and Robert Slade, in Curry Rivel in 1744.

Their daughter was Sarah Hopkins (1745–?)

Thomas Hopkins (1720–1799) married Ann Towells|Hopkins (1719–after 1762) in Curry Rivel in 1744.

Their children were:

Jane Hopkins (1746–1746) named after his mother.

Ann Hopkins|Hillard (1749–after 1787)

Thomas Hopkins (1751–1820)

Mary Hopkins|Hussey (1755–1845)

John Hopkins (1759–1824)

Jenny Hopkins (1762–1763)

Sarah was baptised on 8 September 1745 and Jane was baptised on 16 March 1746 so they are not siblings.

I assume that Jane was the daughter of Thomas junior as otherwise he would not have named a daughter his mother.

I have never found what happened to Sarah baptised in 1745, or indeed when her mother Ann Towells|Hopkins died, or when Thomas senior died.

Still some mysteries to unravel.

I do know from the will of his grandson George Hopkins, that Thomas Hopkins junior must have left a will, but never been able to find out more about it due to the Somerset wills being lost in WWII.

There is more on that here in this thread:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=862417.0

I have also written on another thread about the earlier form of the surname being interchangeable between Atkins and Hopkins here:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=757292

Jon

[terpstrajf]

Hello again jonwicken,

We are getting a little off the main topic of this post, however in regards to your response.

Your list of children of Thomas jr. (1720-1799) and Ann Towells-Hopkins includes...

Mary Hopkins|Hussey (1755–1845)

There seems to be good evidence that the Mary Hopkins who married Henry Hussey 14 September 1783, at Curry Rivel is not the Mary Hopkins daughter of Thomas jr. and Ann.

The line I am researching is through the Salway family. James Salway born and raised in Curry Rivel married Mary Hopkins of Curry Rivel (then 16 1/2 years of age) 24 December 1771. They have 4 children baptised Curry Rivel, 1772-1784, which excludes this Mary as being the one who married Henry Hussey in 1783.

Refer to  - https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/MHCR-X23 which refers to this conflict of two Mary Hopkins. Read the attached "alert notes"

[jonwicken]

Hello again jonwicken,

We are getting a little off the main topic of this post, however in regards to your response.

Your list of children of Thomas jr. (1720-1799) and Ann Towells-Hopkins includes...

Mary Hopkins|Hussey (1755–1845)

There seems to be good evidence that the Mary Hopkins who married Henry Hussey 14 September 1783, at Curry Rivel is not the Mary Hopkins daughter of Thomas jr. and Ann.

The line I am researching is through the Salway family. James Salway born and raised in Curry Rivel married Mary Hopkins of Curry Rivel (then 16 1/2 years of age) 24 December 1771. They have 4 children baptised Curry Rivel, 1772-1784, which excludes this Mary as being the one who married Henry Hussey in 1783.

Refer to  - https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/MHCR-X23 which refers to this conflict of two Mary Hopkins. Read the attached "alert notes"

Thanks for highlighting this so I can put the following out there on the internet, as I did indeed have a good look at these two Mary Hopkins and the Salway and Hussey marriages at the time I researched the Hopkins line.

The marriage of Mary Hopkins to James Salway in 1771 does not state she was under 21 as would be expected if she was only 16:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60858/records/901621497?tid=5705813&pid=110045727495&queryId=9527914d-a3ad-4a42-90b2-5286a03191c7&_phsrc=VSl10569&_phstart=successSource 

Further to this, Mary Hopkins|Salway's burial in 1813 gives an age at death of 70, so she was born in c1742/3, not 1755:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60859/records/1721532?tid=&pid=&queryId=786dd5df-91d1-4d55-9943-6a14a87544e6&_phsrc=VSl10573&_phstart=successSource

Mary Hopkins|Salway would therefore be about 41 to 42 at the birth of her last child in 1784 which would fit with the menopause.

The Mary Hopkins who was baptised in 1755 at Curry Rivel, daughter of Thomas and Ann Hopkins, was therefore the one who married Henry Hussey in 1783 at Curry Rivel.

One of the witnesses at this 1783 marriage was Thomas Hopkins, who is either her father born in 1720 or her brother baptised in 1751.

She is also assumed to be the Mary Hopkins who was a witness to the marriage of her brother John Hopkins to Sarah French at Curry Rivel in 1782.

Mary Hopkins|Hussey was buried in 1845 and her age at burial is stated to be 85. She would actually have been 89, but as her husband Henry Hussey was born around 1762/3 she probably just knocked some years off her age.

My late father's DNA has matches to at least four descendants of Henry Hussey and Mary Hopkins|Hussey (see attached image), so based on all of the above I am as certain as I can be this is all correct.

The various online trees with James Salway and Mary Hopkins that have her as the Mary Hopkins baptised in 1755 at Curry Rivel are incorrect.

I never actually found Mary Hopkins|Salway's baptism around c1742/3 to know how she fits in, but will try and have another look!

Kind regards,
Jon
 

[terpstrajf]

Thank you jonwicken,

Your clarification of the two Mary Hopkins at Curry Rivel is thourough and revealing of the misinformation found on some web pages. Verification of online information is not always easy and I am appreciative of your reasoning.

 

[jonwicken]

Thank you jonwicken,

Your clarification of the two Mary Hopkins at Curry Rivel is thourough and revealing of the misinformation found on some web pages. Verification of online information is not always easy and I am appreciative of your reasoning.

You are welcome. There is such a lot of incorrect information there and with it getting copied over and over again, it is hard to undo.

When family lines are unclear I often research everyone with the same name in a parish or area and this what I did with the Hopkins family Curry Rivel.

Variants of Hopkins are Atkins and Hotkins so maybe she was baptised as a variant or maybe she was a widow.

I wish I had been able to crack the mystery of who Mary Hopkins|Salway was.

[jonwicken]

The witnesses at the 1771 marriage of James Salway and Mary Hopkins were Thomas Sugg and Margaret Andrews:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60858/images/engl78030_d-p-cur-r-2-1-3_m_00033?pId=1621497

I have tried to see if the witnesses were family members but have not been able to establish much.

Thomas Sugg married in Curry Rivel in 1774 to Ann Morish. He was of Curry Rivel and she was of Aller in Somerset:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60858/records/1621518?tid=&pid=&queryId=f106ca6d-567c-4061-9e67-4e23648d2e4c&_phsrc=VSl10619&_phstart=successSource

There are not many Andrews in Somerset but I have found things that may be of interest.

Firstly a Thomas Andrews married a Mary Hopkins in Curry Rivel in 1777. Neither have a marital status but were of the parish:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60858/records/1621544?tid=&pid=&queryId=6311e64e-2f7f-49e3-a99b-50e8568f327f&_phsrc=VSl10621&_phstart=successSource

A Margaret Andrews was buried at Aller on 19 February 1797:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60856/records/842843?tid=&pid=&queryId=588305bc-6802-405d-8002-3b30d0084394&_phsrc=VSl10627&_phstart=successSource

There is a marriage of a Samuel Andrews to Margaret Reynols in Aller in 1771:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60858/records/513146?tid=&pid=&queryId=8077b20e-14c0-4053-8ab5-d19a660a019b&_phsrc=VSl10631&_phstart=successSource

So I am wondering if Aller, which is very close to Curry Rivel may provide the key.