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Messages - NorahEllyn

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1
Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« on: Saturday 14 January 17 19:17 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks heywood.  Isn't it funny how the events of one human being can affect so many even after they're gone?

AND in the meantime, out of the blue (no pun intended), I received information that the LAC (Library and Archives of Canada) have SIX PAGES of information on the BHC Catherine Carroll who was sent via the Liverpool Catholic Children's Protection Society which they can digitize and send to me in 10 days!!!!!  Catherine WAS originally placed in Ottawa and I'm absolutely certain now I'm on the right track there.  Really excited.

I am so crossing my fingers.

Thanks so much for your help,
Norah

2
Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« on: Saturday 14 January 17 18:18 GMT (UK)  »
heywood, you're absolutely right that it wasn't unusual (and still isn't) for family members to raise their sibling's children--and I've diligently tried not to judge Winifred as I have documented as much as I could of her history and see the horror of poverty clasping her life.  Whether she wanted to be a good mother to Catherine or not, I still find it sad that Francis remained with Winifred throughout her life, yet Catherine doesn't even seem to have been baptized (though that baptismal certificate might still be out there somewhere).  I suppose it's possible Philip Clarke didn't care for Catherine and it was easier to keep her at arms length (he was, after all, described as a "dangerous character" and his autopsy revealed he was a strong, muscular man). 

But, yes, there's no way to determine the true situation until I can find the records of Catherine's intake into the Nugent care system as that's all I have as documented proof of everything.  Until I have to piece things together and rely somewhat on supposition.

The only absolutes I have are from the time Catherine was sent to Canada and bits of that are still a mystery.  My grandmother, who Catherine died giving birth to in 1906, had always been told that Catherine escaped from an orphanage in Maine.  Only once I found Catherine's marriage certificate, and the 1901 Canadian census could I finally piece it all together.

I didn't even know where she was buried.  With some serious begging, I finally found her through a sextant's record buried in an unmarked grave in a plot owned by her brother-in-law at the local Methodist church in Kazabazua, Quebec.  I think the loss of his wife, father and baby son in 2 years period of time was too much for my great-grandfather and he couldn't recover.

The sad life of Catherine continued even after her death:  overwhelmed, her husband sent his children, all six of them, to his sister and ran away.  It wasn't until his sister also died in childbirth that my grandmother's older sister escaped from what my grandmother called her "mean and cruel" uncle with my grandmother that my grandmother had a basic, stable home.  Even then her sister raised her only until the authorities insisted her father retrieve her through threats of placing her in an institution.  From then on her life was that of a housekeeper and cook and my grandmother never went back to school.  She only ever received a 3rd-grade education.  It's really been a very sad multi-generational story. 

I wish my grandmother had lived long enough, though, for me to share with her the meager portions of her mother's life I have found.  All she ever had was the photo I have here on my profile--a lovely woman with sad eyes very much like mine--who looked at me from a silver frame on my grandmother's nightstand all my life.  It's kind of an obsession now--to really find and understand Catherine--and that's why after 28 years I'm still trying to get those bits and pieces and I'm so appreciative of anyone, like you and Blue, who offer to help.


Blue, THANK you, I will definitely contact them.  I've tried everything to find the records for the Nugent system, even taking the archivist out to lunch when I flew to England 12 years ago. She did a hunt on what she had but NOTHING could be found.  I keep hoping though--you just never know.

Thank you both!!!
Norah

3
Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« on: Saturday 14 January 17 00:58 GMT (UK)  »
You are absolutely right.  I was consulting my notes and failed to see that the information I was referencing was the trial of  Isaac Grace, who owned the public-house, 40, Scotland-road.

Thanks to everyone's help today, not only have I found MASSES of Catholic documentation for the family, I've even found that Winifred had another sister I didn't even know existed.  I am so appreciative of your help!

I wish I could substantiate poor Catherine's life in Liverpool, but at least I've moved further on her brother.  This means the world to me.

But I've had enough DUH moments today to either justify getting a new pair of reading glasses or maybe I should just stop spending 14 hours staring at the monitor.   

Norah

4
Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« on: Friday 13 January 17 23:01 GMT (UK)  »
Oh that is great!  I've added it to Philip's family information.  It must have been some fight.  I have the inquest from the Liverpool Echo and the trial transcript for Edward McGuinness.

Winifred testified at her husband's inquest that he came into the house, said he was "killed" and fell over, going to bed later on that night.  A day or two later, he went to the workhouse hospital and he died there from a ruptured bladder and peritonitis after accusing McGuinness of kicking him. 

The whole mess started when McGuinness told Philip he would not serve him and it escalated into an outside fight. 

He considered Clarke a "dangerous character" which is why he wouldn't allow Clarke to be served that night. 

The defendant actually got off with a 20 shilling fine and had to pay all costs.

Thank you so much for the information!  That's the kind of thing that adds real interest to these very human stories.

Norah

5
Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« on: Friday 13 January 17 20:18 GMT (UK)  »
omgosh, my brain must be turning to mush today.  I don't have the 1841 census for them, I think I typed that without thinking--and yes, you're absolutely right about the timing of the family residing in Liverpool. 

I have the family living in Liverpool in 1851 when her father, Francis, was working as a dock labourer.  Though I WISH I could find travel records for them from Ireland (or just ANYthing that gave me the county in which they were born), Ann, the sister was born in Ireland around 1845, and Winifred was born in Liverpool in 1848, so my best guess is they came over right at the time of the famine. 

And I suspect the duplicity of the Victorians, particularly where the poor were concerned, is what keeps them so fascinating to us today.

Thank you so much for your help!
Norah

6
Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« on: Friday 13 January 17 19:19 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Blue,

Yes, I feared that was the case.  This was a last ditch effort to see if she was hidden somewhere in the records and missed.  But I think you might be right.

It is sad though that Winifred had Francis baptized and kept him with her (this is poignantly evident in 1881 when Francis is residing with his mother, but Catherine is with her aunt and step-grandmother), even sending Catherine to Nugent.  Let's just say it's never done much to increase any respect I might have had for her, but I have to consistently remind myself, it was a different time.

Norah 

7
Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« on: Friday 13 January 17 19:14 GMT (UK)  »
Whoo!  Yes you did make a great find!  I have no idea how I managed to miss that, but it's probably because I'm not great with the new Ancestry slider-searches.  That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

Thank you so so much! 

Yes, I wonder if Michael is his name or if Winifred just made it up as she went along.  From everything I've learned about her and her family (they were victims of the Irish potato famine, coming over to Liverpool for work only to find poverty.  Her father, Francis, died of typhoid in the Liverpool workhouse and I have no idea what became of her mother, Ann.)

The family's story is so sad, and it culminated by Catherine finally finding stability and happiness in her husband, Charles Shaw, in Quebec until she died, age 30, giving birth to my grandmother in 1906.  (The children's story from there is equally as tragic.)

Winifred stated that she had given birth to 3 children when she was living with Francis in 1911 on Comer Street in Liverpool.  She stated that 2 of the children were dead.  I will always wonder if she guessed that Catherine had preceded her, or if she was informed by Nugent.

You've opened up a whole NEW set of research for me, I'll always be so grateful!

Norah

8
Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« on: Friday 13 January 17 18:55 GMT (UK)  »
I just found the marriage record from Francis Xavier on Francis Blake's marriage to Harriet Hirst in September, 1900.  He states on that record his father's name is Michael.  But the actual marriage certificate from the GRO shows his father as Francis Blake.  How about that for confusion?

Thanks again!
Norah

9
Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« on: Friday 13 January 17 18:48 GMT (UK)  »
No I don't!  You found Francis???   :D

Sorry, I should have made it clearer that I had that 1881 census return.  I have a DUH this morning. 

Norah

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