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Messages - WealdenClark

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1
Travelling People / Re: Gumble's
« on: Sunday 23 January 11 18:18 GMT (UK)  »
Barney,

In the 1881 english Census for St Pancras, Marylebone, there are a large number of  Gumbles 'living in tents' living with Lees, Smiths and a Read, at the end of the census district.

One of these 1881 Gumbles, Phoebe, listed as a hawker, wed Romany hawker Stephen Clark in Horsmonden, near Tonbridge, on 28/09/1891.  It seems from this that the Gumbles must have come south at some point, maybe to pick hops in Kent. If this happened once, you can bet it was a tradition to do it regular, as it was for the Clarks.

Hope this helps

Neil

2
Travelling People / Re: Kent / Sussex Travellers
« on: Sunday 23 January 11 17:58 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Steve,

There seems to be a connection between Jones and Porter. Charles Porter, born Portsmouth 1823 is also known as Charles Jones (1861 census, Newark, Chailey, Sussex) The Porter|Jones's have connection with the Bacon family from their Surrey years during their slow move from Sussex from Hampshire around 1845. They spent a lot of time aroung Hastings and Heathfield, Sussex. One of these Bacon-Porters rommered my great Uncle Bill Clark.

My distant Clark family relatives wed Kemps women twice (Burwash, Sussex, census returns of of 1851-1881, Sophia Kemp) and Wadhurst (1871 census, Lucy Kemp) then Pembury (1881 census). These Clarks are static compared to my other Clark relatives, but the names of the Burwash lot are unconventional which points to Romany (or a speech defect). The Pembury Clark-Kemps I think emigrated to Canada shortly after 1881.

Brenchley & Horsmonden in Kent, Warbleton & Ticehurst, Sussex and [Northiam, Ore, Pett and Fairlight - all near Hastings] seem to have stopping places where Romanies atched regularly.

3
Travelling People / Re: possible gypsy
« on: Sunday 23 January 11 17:28 GMT (UK)  »
Debi,

You can look at the website of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society (RTFHS) and get many of the names that Romanies use in Britain. It certainly true that sometimes Irish and Romany wed each other, due to the Irish also being forced ont the roads during the last century. Many Irish women who came over hawked just like Romany women did. I know there used to be a big concentration of Irish hawkers in England's northwest.

4
Travelling People / Re: Ticehurst in Sussex ~ The Place ....?
« on: Saturday 17 October 09 17:12 BST (UK)  »
Hi Steve,

I hope this information helps.

Ticehurst was a main base for my family since at least 1820, and was at the eastern end of my great grandad's sweeping circuit that terminated at Rotherfield in the west.

A few of things:

(a) Geography: being on the southern end of The Weald the areas in between the villages of Ticegurst, Stonegate, Burwash, Heathfield and Rotherfield etc were separated by countryside in which much of the land was a little hilly, boggy, overgrown and hidden, providing good stopping/hiding places. The roads were, and still seem to be, a little smallish. This was unlike areas close to the A21 in the east which was a main highway, and so exposed to police harassment.

These places are also to some extent 'sealed off' by upland ridges to the north and south, so they are intruded on less. Hedgehogs and Rabbits are extremely common. My great uncle would visit grandad (bringing his 'stoat in a bag') just to go hunting there, as it was better ground than in Brenchley and Tonbridge to the north where he lived. There was less need for my family to poach: so again they were less exposed to the law. You could ALMOST live off the land in these places: It sustained a family of 25 for my grandad for over 30 years.

(b). Wealthy villages: Places like Ticehurst, Mayfield and Burwash had a large 'rich' segment of the population who were happy to use grandad to rid themselves of their cast-offs for his rag and bone work. A suitably sited den could service a few larger villages for chimney sweeping work, and the residents could afford to pay. This is what great-grandad did. Grandad was able to pick out 6-7 nearby hamlets to sell holly wreaths in at Christmas (using his cute children to soften up the locals!)
(grandad walked 10-20 miles a day to maximise the no. of hamlets visited).

(c). Commons: Each village would have had a common that was originally not fenced off. A high density of village commons would have attracted Romanies in the first place as in the old days they camped on them. Grandad lived on the fringe of Broad Oak Common (hidden in the woods).

(d). Local Options: as already mentioned, the hop parishes and fruit fields were nearby. My ancestors could fall back on their chavvies as unpaid workers for fruit picking if times got hard (grandad kept all the money, and fed them oatmeal!) Living there, grandad eventually saved up £800 to buy a smallholding, which represented 25 years savings. Not bad.

(e). Strength in numbers?

NB1: between Ticehurst and Heathfield, both my grandad's and great grandad's circuits covered almost exactly 8 x 14 miles.

NB2: Regarding the workhouse, my grandad had a phobia about these places

Good luck with your research,

Neil Harvey



5
Travelling People / Re: Licenced hawkers and census'
« on: Saturday 17 October 09 16:27 BST (UK)  »
Hi There,

Regarding sweeps and hawkers - I'd put money on them being the same family. My family both swept and hawked within the same year, and thought nothing of switching between the two.

Being Travellers its possible they had even more strings to their bow.

6
Travelling People / Re: Clark family
« on: Friday 13 March 09 22:14 GMT (UK)  »
Had some news in this week from a newly discovered Clark relative. Uncle Jack, who travelled, insisted to his wife Olive that he was a Romany Gipsy.
On one occasion he said he came from them - "..they weren't a bunch of didicoys".

That final bit of evidence clinches it. My Grandad was a Romany Gypsy.

WOW.

aa1Web - Thanks for the info - its the first thing I've heard on the Stones, who I've next to no info on. I think I need to begin enlarging the search into Essex and. I've found a William Clark in the 1881 census who was a Marine Store Dealer (like my grandad), from 'Fifield' in Essex, living in Gravesend, Kent. He could be one of mine or Rebekas.

7
Travelling People / Re: Clark family
« on: Monday 23 February 09 20:56 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Rebeka,

Here's another Clark snippet for you discovered recently. As you know, I know my wealden Clark's were travelers, but I'm not yet ready to jump in just yet and say they were Romany, being cautious. Well, Great Great Aunt Emily Clark(e) had children with James Reynolds in 1875 and 1877 before getting married to him, C of E style in 1879.

A really funny thing happened to their names on the two pre-wedding birth certificates so far found.

On the pre-wedding birth certificates, James Reynolds went about calling himself James Clarke TAKING HIS WIFES NAME (shock! horror!). Just to make thing more confusing, Emily Clarke is calling herself Emily Wood (once) and Emily Stone (once). Eh? The addresses match with other records so it has to be them. However, at their wedding, their fathers were declared as being Robert Clark and James Reynolds (senior).

Have you come across this kind of thing in your family? Is it a Gypsy tradition?

Regards to you and all, Neil.


8
Travelling People / Re: Joseph Clarke/ Ann King Nottingham
« on: Sunday 01 February 09 17:29 GMT (UK)  »
Hi There,

I'm descended from a family of travellers called Clark(e) who lived in the Sussex Weald and the Tunbridge area of Kent. They travelled with one Henry King, who may be my great great grandfather, who was born in 'Chessunt' north of the Thames. He was a travelling 'broomdasher'. Some Clarkes were certainly Romany speaking and therefore Romany - try googling 'Romany Star'. I've yet to establish if my clarks were Romany: they were travelling Chimney Sweeps and Marine Store Dealers.
see: 
1851 census: HO107\1615\466\4
1861 census: RG9\570\76\18
1871 census: RG11\1045\83\21

Regards, Neil


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