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Messages - jonwicken

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1
These are absolutely great. Thanks so much.

I especially loved the Regional Farming in Seventeenth Century Yorkshire piece.

I am writing an article on this family for the Quaker Family History Society publication "Quaker Connections" and trying to expand out on the lives and events so it is not just names and dates.

These links will really help me do that.

Thank you. 


2
Hello I am please looking to find out more about farming in the Skipton and Craven area of Yorkshire in the 1600s and 1700s.

Ancestors of mine, Henry King and his son William King, who were Quakers, are known to have lived at Mire House near Marton-in-Craven in the 1680s. The house is still there:

https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101167328-mire-house-farmhouse-martons-both

I am trying to find out a bit more about farming in the area and wonder if anyone can point me to useful materials.

I have found this online:

https://eprints.glos.ac.uk/4019/1/historic-farmsteads-preliminary-character-statement-yorkshire-humber.pdf

This is helpful as it is specific to the Yorkshire area and includes on page 26 the following:

"Agricultural productivity – particularly of grain – was spurred by a doubling of population from between 2.5 and 3 million to over 5 million by 1660, and an associated rise (by six times) in grain prices. After 1650, a fall in grain prices, a rise in cattle prices and demand from London and other growing urban markets, led to a rise in cattle rearing in the north of England, and of the dairy industry and specialised produce (such as hops and cider) in other areas."

I am looking for more information like this to help me understand how farming would have worked in the area and wonder if there are any contemporary accounts of farming in the Skipton area for this time period.

I am particularly interested in how a family would work together in a small farmstead when there would probably be several adult children living together and the dynamics of that. Also how farms were rented/owned and how and where they would have sold their produce and livestock.

If anyone can please direct me to any sources and resources, I would love to know about them.

Thank you,
Jonny

3
The Common Room / Re: Witnesses and date on a will in 1660s Yorkshire
« on: Wednesday 02 July 25 14:08 BST (UK)  »
Thanks very much indeed, Bookbox.

I will do that now.

Kind regards,
Jon

4
The Common Room / Re: Witnesses and date on a will in 1660s Yorkshire
« on: Wednesday 02 July 25 13:41 BST (UK)  »
This is the other side of the probate document, which very clearly states that it was proved in 1663, so I am very confused about the date on the will. It was been catalogued elsewhere as 1690 I think, but it is clearly not.

Thanks for posting the other side. This suggests that the document is a later copy, made in 1690, of an original will proved in 1663. It does not include the testator's signature, and all the witnesses' names are in the same hand.

Thanks for this. That does indeed make sense.

But why would a copy have been lodged in York in 1690?

What happened to the original?

Could it have been proved elsewhere?

It says the place it was proved was Craven and googling, I found this:

https://www.dalescommunityarchives.org.uk/content/organisation/north-craven-wills-inventories-2

So was Robert Dickinson's will proved elsewhere? And could the original survive in another archive?

If you have any thoughts on this, that would be helpful.

Thank you.


5
The Common Room / Re: Witnesses and date on a will in 1660s Yorkshire
« on: Wednesday 02 July 25 13:03 BST (UK)  »
I believe the year at the top is written 16 & nintie = 1690. I'm afraid I have no idea what precedes that. It looks like 17 R [?].

Is there no other date given anywhere in the paperwork - perhaps on a wrapper, or on the grant of probate? I can see the Calendar that you've linked to on FindMyPast, with the handwritten annotation at the foot. But how does the Borthwick Institute date the will in its own catalogue?

Before 1858 a beneficiary could witness a will, as long as there was also another witness.

That is great and super helpful to know about the law on witnesses.

I am writing an article on this King family for the Quaker Family History Society publication Quaker Connections to collate all my research and am trying to tie up some loose ends. So thank you.

This is the other side of the probate document, which very clearly states that it was proved in 1663, so I am very confused about the date on the will. It was been catalogued elsewhere as 1690 I think, but it is clearly not.

Son-in-law Henry King died in 1680 and the will clearly shows it was proved in 1663.

The information about probate and witnesses is very helpful as I assume therefore that Margaret King the witness is the same as the beneficiary and executor.

Henry King's wife Margaret Dickinson|King was baptised in Skipton in 1620. Their marriage has not been found, however from her age it would put their 10 children as being born between c1640-1665.

Some of their children were baptised in the parish registers of Marton and Skipton; Jane in 1644, John in 1647, Henry in 1649 and William in 1650.

Their other children's baptisms are not in the registers as I think they then joined the Quakers and birth registers only exist from the 1660s. 

Daughter Margaret King, who I believe is the spinster in the other document you kindly translated, was therefore presumably born between c1652 and 1665. She married widower John Walbank in 1699 and died in 1732.

Agnes or Annas King who is the other witness on the will I think is their eldest daughter, presumably born around 1642. It is possible her baptism is in Marton like that of sister Jane but the registers are illegible in places due to water damage.

Agnes King married William Ellis in Broughton on 1 February 1676/7 and had a daughter Ann Ellis in 1680 whose birth was recorded in the Quaker births.

I had wondered if the witness Annas/Agnes King could be a sister or mother of Henry King rather than his daughter, but I have found no Agnes Kings in the family or records.

Thanks again,
Jon
 

 

 

6
The Common Room / Witnesses and date on a will in 1660s Yorkshire
« on: Tuesday 01 July 25 23:31 BST (UK)  »
Attached is the will of my ancestor Robert Dickinson of Eastby in the parish of Skipton, Yorkshire.

He was buried on 22 December 1661 at Skipton, but his will was not proved until 1 June 1663 at York

(https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=OR%2FBRS%2F306%2F0027&parentid=OR%2FBRS%2F306%2F0027).

Can anyone please work out what the year is at the top? Is it 1660? And the date is 17 of what month? I think it is an initial for the month.

In the will, Robert Dickinson leaves his possessions and £4 to his son and daughter-in-law Henry King and Margaret King, formerly Dickinson.

The two of them are also named as executors.

The witnesses are a Margaret King and an Annas [Agnes] King.

I assume that these two women are two of Henry and Margaret's daughters.

However can anyone please confirm that at this time you would still not have been able to witness a will if you were a beneficiary or executor.

I want to make sure that Margaret King the witness cannot be the same as Robert Dickinson's daughter Margaret King the beneficiary and executor.

Thank you,
Jon 



 

7
And that Thomas Wood lately of Marton in the county of York, yeoman, and Grace his wife, and Margaret King lately of the same place, spinster, Henry King lately of the same place, labourer, and James Smith lately of the same place, labourer, on the first day of June in the tenth year of the reign of our lord King William the Third by the grace of god now King of England etc., being over the age of sixteen years, with force and arms at Marton aforesaid in the West Riding in the aforesaid county, and with divers individuals unknown to the aforesaid jury, did illegally assemble and congregate at the same time on the same day in a room (in English, 'a room') of the mansion house of the aforesaid Thomas Wood, then and there situated in Marton aforesaid in the West Riding in the aforesaid county, on the pretext of joining in religious worship (in English, 'Religious Worship'), not at all authorized by the laws of this kingdom of England, in contempt of the said lord king and his laws, against the form of the statute etc., and against the peace etc.

In the margin are the names of the defendants who opted for trial by jury (Thomas & Grace Wood, Margaret King, Henry King, James Smith), and presumably two witnesses (Reginald Heber & Peter Horner). No relationship is stated for Margaret and Henry, but she is a spinster.

Across the top there is reference to three payments of sixpence (but I’m unsure of the abbreviations).

The 1699 entries are recognizances (= bonds of undertaking) of £20 each in the names of Thomas Wood and Henry King, both yeomen of Marton, for Thomas and Grace and Henry and Margaret to appear at the next sessions to be held at Skipton, on an indictment of riot under the guise of religious worship.

That is absolutely amazing. Thank you so much!

I really need Latin lessons.

I wonder if the trial records survive.

I have been researching the Kings of Yorkshire for over a decade now and great to add a bit more to the family.

Thanks again Bookbox!

8
Hello could anyone please help with a Latin to English translation of these two entries in the Quarter Session records for Yorkshire?

There are two entries which relate to each other from 12 Jul 1698 and 18 Apr 1699 and they both name Henry King and Margaret King of Marton.

It looks to me that maybe they are siblings as I think Margaret is referred to as a spinster. I know the family were Quakers and their father Henry King of Mire House in Marton died in 1680.

12 Jul 1698 entry:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/6065/records/202161?tid=&pid=&queryId=582fea3b-87c5-44ae-9591-1f56a068d934&_phsrc=VSl17831&_phstart=successSource 

18 Apr 1699 entry:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/6065/records/202161?tid=&pid=&queryId=582fea3b-87c5-44ae-9591-1f56a068d934&_phsrc=VSl17831&_phstart=successSource

I also attach the images.

Also named in them is Thomas Wood. I assume he too is a Quaker as he is also mentioned in this entry from 11 June 1704 when his house was recorded as a religious meeting house:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/6065/records/83609?tid=&pid=&queryId=c041aa7e-edc2-4f39-9ed8-f3e639a68c2f&_phsrc=VSl18779&_phstart=successSource

Any help on this would be gratefully received.

Thank you,
Jon

9
Devon Lookup Requests / Re: Exeter 1872 Marriage - Thomas Ellis and Eliza Denham
« on: Wednesday 25 June 25 12:42 BST (UK)  »
jonwicken, firstly just wanted to say how pleased I was that you accepted that the William & Mary you were following were not the same couple having unregistered children during the 1840/50's. It really makes a change that posters admit going wrong (and if were all honest most of us have at some point). Are you wanting to still gather info on this family, ie baptism dates etc.

SS

Thank you. Yes when people don't acknowledge an error they have made, it is very frustrating indeed!

I always double check anything I read or see myself and have had to inform many people over the years they have got something wrong, and as you say often people don't like or accept it!

My head is in a spin with all these small DNA matches to Dinham and Denham families in my late father's DNA and the DNA of a distant cousin of his.

I am hoping that DNA might help me crack the origin of my my ancestor Robert Denham (c1773/4-1837) who married Mary Lepine in London in 1803. Incidentally, his details are wrong in dozens of family trees on ancestry as being born in 1779 (that Robert is actually too young and actually died as a baby) and also dying in 1838 (that is a different Robert Denham who married Mary Adams and was born in Norwich in 1771). So I see the errors and often it is impossible to correct them when across multiple trees and they become alternative facts!

I think what I really need the most now is to see the father's name on the 1872 marriage of Eliza Denham to Thomas Ellis to confirm she is William's daughter.

Then I need to see the father's name on the marriage of widow Mary Denham to John Yendall in 1868 to see if it helps me find her first marriage to William Dinham.

Thanks again for all the help. 

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