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Hi Essnell,

The problem is that Elizabeth's age is not consistent throughout the Census records. She was born between 1840 and 1850 but most likely to be 1842-1844. Unfortunately there are literally hundreds of Elizabeth Jones born in Liverpool at that time.

Hi, I’m hoping some of you knowledgeable people can help with my reasoning on my 2x great grandmother, Elizabeth Jones (No. 19) parents, and if they think I am on the right track.

This is very complicated and so I have attached a brief tree using Ahnentafel numbering to help. My parents are second cousins and so my DNA tree suffers from pedigree collapse. I’m not an expert but not exactly a novice either having tested my DNA back in 2018 and I have found my maternal illegitimate (No. 7) grandmother’s biological father through DNA plus my illegitimate double 2x great grandmother (No. 17 & 25) Hannah Tunstall’s biological father, William Rawlinson.


Grouping my matches doesn’t show any missing ancestors that would specifically belong to (19) Elizabeth Jones. In fact, all of the descendants of 18 & 19 – Richard Barton and Elizabeth Jones also match the descendants of 32 & 33 (also numbered 48 & 49) William Brumfitt and Catherine Morris whether they be paternal or maternal matches. It also goes beyond, in that they also match descendants of 256 & 257 Thomas Brumfitt & Sarah Hudson – ie. John Brumfitt and his siblings. Plus they match descendants upstream from Catherine Morris.

I notice now we have custom clusters available from Ancestry, that using a Brumfitt match from (64) William Brumfitt (snr), these clusters are exactly the same as using a Barton third cousin descending from Richard Barton and Elizabeth Jones.

Elizabeth Jones was born in Liverpool in the 1840s – can’t give a specific year as her age varies in Census returns, between 1840 and 1850 but most likely 1842-1843 and hence I cannot order a birth certificate – there are hundreds of Elizabeth Jones born in Liverpool. However, when she married in Liverpool on 24 June 1866, to Richard Barton her father was shown as being William Jones, a licensed victualler.

Experience tells me that quite often illegitimate people will often name grandfathers or make up a name when they marry. My theory is that (32) William Brumfitt junior is Elizabeth Jones father and her mother an unmarried woman with the surname Jones. William Brumfitt’s occupation was hairdresser, Beer Seller and later Liberal Registration Agent and he owned a pub, the Canterbury Arms.

In my maternal matches ranging from third to fourth cousins who match Barton descendants from Richard Barton and Elizabeth Jones my mother is their highest match and cM predictions would be correct for William Brumfitt being Elizabeth Jones father. My mother’s second highest match is 56 cM and their relationship would be half 3C1R.

My mother’s highest match with this Barton line is 120 cM, however, this particular match is also descended from (17) Hannah Tunstall’s biological father William Rawlinson. I match this particular match 193cM, she is my third cousin through my paternal Barton side, a half 4C twice through Hannah Tunstall’s father, plus if William Brumfitt comes into the mix she would also be a half 4C twice through him, hence the high match.

On to Elizabeth Jones mother. I have no idea who she may be but I suspect all of my Jones lines and my Morris line are connected, and given that my paternal Barton’s also match upwards of Catherine Morris plus matches specifically on two of my maternal lines this adds some weight to that theory. I have one Barton match who matches a descendant of 112 & 113 Peter Jones and Anne Owen, a few who match descendants of 212 & 213 Peter Jones and Elizabeth Hughes.

Peter Jones and Elizabeth Hughes married in West Kirby, Wirral in what was Cheshire in 1774. Both lived very long lives and lived past the 1841 Census which states both were not born in the County (Cheshire). Given their surnames I suspect they were born in North Wales. 112 Peter Jones was born in Newmarket/Trelawnyd, Flintshire in 1765 as were his descendants. Catherine Morris’ ancestors which includes Jones were from the Meliden and Prestatyn areas of Flintshire. Meliden and Trelawynd are neighbouring villages.

If you have read and understand all of this thank you and if you think I am on the right track please let me know.

Gail

Quote from: GailB on Wednesday 02 July 25 02:31 BST (UK)

From what I remember reading the instructions from the first time I opened it, to be included matches are over 65cM who match at least 20cM with each other.

If that's the case the scope is so small as to be effectively useless. Someone with experience could cluster such matches in less than an hour.

What is more important are more remote clusters. A test will have clusters where the largest match is say 12-20cM, where the MRCA is probably around the 1700 AD window. Throw in an interface that pinpoints common localities, surnames and common ancestors among the matches and they have a useful tool to dramatically save time and help people. That would also generate them more revenue.

Agreed

I have 37 matches above 65cM and I know how all of them fit into my tree. They need to reduce the 65cM to 20cM.

However, they did say that soon users will be able to specify clusters based on a range of cM.

I would like to point out that yesterday when I first noticed the clusters were there, I only had two clusters but now I have three.

From what I remember reading the instructions from the first time I opened it, to be included matches are over 65cM who match at least 20cM with each other.

What I have noticed from checking the 16 accounts I have DNA access to is that immediate family are omitted - parent/child, full and half siblings etc. Aunt/uncle and nephew/niece, first cousins are included.