RootsChat.Com

Is that you C A?  Super to hear from you!!!!  Hope you've been well! 

Lovely to get a notification out of the blue about more action on this long-dormant thread!

It's funny: I haven't done much at all in the family history space for several years, let alone looking into the Burgoyne family. Coincidentally yesterday I had a moment to turn my attention to Hardy family - Dorothy Maddick Burgoyne's family - with some success. 

Speaking of Dorothy Maddick Hardy - her husband William Burgoyne (born Kingsbridge, Devon in 1783) was one of two known sons of another William Burgoyne (born Blackawton, Devon 1747).

For Field Marshal Sir John Fox Burgoyne to be a great uncle of Maria Theresa Burgoyne, I think he would need to be a sibling of Maria's grandfather.

William Burgoyne (born 1783), who married Dorothy Maddick Hardy, was Maria's grandfather.

William Burgoyne's other brother was Andrew Randall Burgoyne (born Kingsbridge 1798).

Field Marshal Sir John Fox Burgoyne was born in 1782. 

(I'm totally discounting the possibility that Sir John Fox Burgoyne's mum Susan Caulfield was a Burgoyne or that her affair was with one of our Devon Burgoynes rather than General Burgoyne, because it seems very remote!  And also I have no Caulfields or Burnestones showing up in my DNA martches!!!!!)

So I can't see Maria's story being true, myself. But I have been known to get a bit bamboozled with how these relationships work, and exactly what constitutes a "great uncle" (could it be a great-great uncle, or once removed or something?). I'll happily let others school me if so

I do think there may have been a Burgoyne family tendency to claim high-born kin. My Burgoynes certainly have form in that area. Ancestral folklore goes that our Irish-based Spencers are allegedly blue bloods who are related somehow to Winston Churchill (could be true but it's got to be an incredibly tangential relationship if so, and although it was a commonly voiced claim, there is the elephantine absence of evidence in the room). I don't know why they couldn't be satisfied with having an ancestor who brought gaslight to Holywood and built the Married Soldiers' Quarters at Dundalk. Let alone a Professor of Electro-Medicine and Therapeutics.  ) 

While you are here .... could we please speak somewhere offline about the possibility of me securing a copy of key pages from the Burgoyne family bible?  I would love to have another copy somewhere for posterity

I am sorry i couldn't help snare that Fox! 

Please stay in touch, and all the very best! 

Grant

Hi there - I can help a little with the Reynolds of St Agnes. My ancestors are James Reynolds and Elizabeth Seymour. My 4th cousin in California and I are both researching our Reynolds connections.
Their children included Sophia Seymour 1787, Harriett 1789, William 1792, Kezia 1798 baptised 1800, Elizabeth 1802, Jane 1805, Philippa 1816 and Nicholas (also 1816).
By looking at witnesses, birth location (we're from Mawla farm) and details of father's name on marriage certificates we've narrowed things down a bit. Still a long way to go!
Seymour Hosking (yes, I'm called Seymour after my great-great-grandmother)

This is very interesting Seymour, and thanks for taking the time to respond!  It certainly seems to resolve much of the confusing membership of the two contemporaneous James/Elizabeth Reynolds families in St Agnes! 

I'll summarise then:

•   The family of James REYNOLDS and Elizabeth SEYMOUR, married St Agnes Dec 1786

1. Sophia Seymour (baptised St Agnes, 26 Dec 1787, marries Simon Chellew of Gwennap in St Agnes, 24 Dec 1817)
2. Harriet (baptised 1789, marries Joseph Johns in St Agnes, 1816)
3. William (baptised St Agnes, 05 May 1793, marries Avis [Waters?], dies at Mawla in 1844)
4. Kezia (baptised St Agnes, 02 Feb 1800)
5. Elizabeth (baptised St Agnes, 15 Aug 1802)
6. Jane (baptised St Agnes, 1816)
7. Philippa (baptised St Agnes, 1816 - dressmaker living with her mother at Mawla in the 1841 Census)
8. Nicholas (baptised St Agnes, 1816)

James Reynolds appears to have been born about 1760.  He dies in September 1827 at Mawla.  Elizabeth Seymour outlives him by 18 years, dying at Mawla in December 1845, aged about 80. 


•   The family of James REYNOLDS and Elizabeth WILLIAMS, married St Agnes Feb 1786

1. George (baptised St Agnes, 07 May 1786, probably buried 02 Jun 1786)
2. George (baptised St Agnes, 11 Mar 1787, dies of "miner's decline" at Higher Bal, St Agnes in Jan 1850, aged 63)
3. James (baptised St Agnes, 18 Jul 1790, died an infant)
4. James (baptised St Agnes, 13 Oct 1791, family living at Trevellas Coomb, St Agnes, in 1841)
5. John (baptised St Agnes, 21 Sep 1794, family living at nearby Cross Coomb, St Agnes, in 1841)
6. William (baptised St Agnes, 08 Apr 1798, family living at Cross Coomb, St Agnes, in 1841)
7. Thomas (baptised St Agnes, 28 Feb 1802, family probably living at Goonvrea, over St Agnes Beacon from Higher Bal, in 1841)

It's not clear when these Reynolds parents born or died.  In July 1824 there's a possible match with a 70 year old James Reynolds who dies in Church Town, St Agnes.  Elizabeth Williams may be the 79 year old Elizabeth Reynolds of Goonvrea who is buried on 16 June 1840 at St Agnes. 


This leaves us with some things still to resolve.

I have left three children of James and Elizabeth out of the lists above.  They are:

1. Samuel
- he is described as being from Mawla when buried in May 1846,
- in 1841 he is living as an agricultural labourer in Forge, Redruth, less than 200 metres from Mawla,
- he has a daughter christened Sophia, which is an unusual Reynolds name, except in the Seymour family

2. Jeremiah
- in 1841 he is also living in Forge, Redruth in 1841, less than 200 metres from Mawla, with daughters Kezia, Jane and Philippa

3. Isaiah
- he is baptised 15 Aug 1802, the same day as James Reynolds and Elizabeth Seymour’s daughter Elizabeth

Based on dates, family names and where they’re living relative to Mawla, my sense is that these folks are likely to be from the Reynolds/Seymour branch. 

And just for completeness, there is an unnamed son of James buried at St Agnes on 01 Oct 1788.  I’m not sure yet who he belongs to. 

Finally, on an incidental matter, while checking this out yesterday (sorry it’s taken so long to get back to it!) I managed to break through a bit of the Chenoweth brick wall mentioned in the first post.  I now suspect that the Ann Chenoweth who marries James Reynolds (number 4 in the Reynolds/Williams list) is the “Nancy Chenoweth” baptised on 18 April 1790 in Gwennap.  She’s the daughter of Sampson Chenoweth and Mary Thomas.  The line goes back a couple more generations from there.  My suspicions about this Gwennap link strengthened when I noticed a possible Chenoweth nephew (also Sampson) living next door to uncle George Reynolds (1787-1850) at Higher Bal in 1841. 

Very best regards

Grant

Hi again

So I’m trying to sort through these late 18th century St Agnes REYNOLDS families.  There’s potential ancestors galore for all of us among them!!!  If we can arrive at some clarity, hopefully this thread will make for really useful research reading down the track! 

There are two St Agnes baptised James Reynolds.  Between them they father at least 14 children In the late 1700s.  With flagrant disregard for future genealogists, they conspire to reproduce concurrently during this time.  As if that wasn’t challenging enough, they both choose women christened Elizabeth to do the heavy lifting for them. 

Looking for naming clues in earlier Reynolds generations hasn’t really helped me to decide which James and Elizabeth belongs with which child.  However, its not unusual for me to overlook the obvious.  The only relevant mid 1700s Reynolds families in the region that I can find are a George Reynolds and Catherine BLEWETT from Perranzabuloe (married 1743), who have four children, the eldest of which are George and James (1751).  Then there’s a James Reynolds and Thomisen CLEMOW (married in St Agnes in 1760), who have a son James in 1768 (who is perhaps a bit young for us) along with 8 other children. There’s also a James Reynolds and Jane SYMMONDS (married in Redruth in 1758), whose son James is born in St Agnes in 1761.  They seem to have the rest of their family in either Illogan or Redruth.   

In the absence of any real firm ideas about where to go next, I’m listing all of the St Agnes 1786-1802 children of James and Elizabeth Reynolds below. 

They need to be put into one of two groups – either children of

•   James REYNOLDS and Elizabeth WILLIAMS, married St Agnes Feb 1786

or

•   James REYNOLDS and Elizabeth SEYMOUR, married St Agnes Dec 1786

So far I have identified the following St Agnes children of James and Elizabeth REYNOLDS:

1.   George, baptised 07 May 1786
2.   George, baptised 11 Mar 1787
3.   Sophia Seymour, baptised 26 Dec 1787
4.   James, baptised 18 Jul 1790
5.   James, born 17 Aug 1791, baptised 13 Oct 1791
6.   William, born 23 Dec 1792, baptised 05 May 1793
7.   John, born 29 Aug 1794, baptised 21 Sep 1794
8.   Samuel, baptised 27 Oct 1795
9.   Jeremiah, born 09 May 1796, baptised 15 Nov 1796
10.   William, born 14 Mar 1798, baptised 08 Apr 1798
11.   Kezia, born 10 Jul 1798, baptised 02 Feb 1800
12.   Isaiah, born 15 Jul 1800, baptised 15 Aug 1802
13.   Elizabeth, born 16 Feb 1802, baptised 15 Aug 1802
14.   Thomas, born 17 Jan 1802, baptised 28 Feb 1802

It’s just possible that Georges 1 and 2 above are both from the same set of parents, which would be James Reynolds and Elizabeth Williams (because the first one is born before the James Reynolds and Elizabeth Seymour marriage occurs).  However, there’s no matching burial of an infant George.  On available evidence, perhaps both couples’ first child is a son called George.   

Number 3, Sophia Seymour Reynolds, plainly belongs to James Reynolds and Elizabeth Seymour.  She is baptised just nine months after her brother George – pretty quick turnaround, but possible depending on birth dates. 

The two Jameses at 4 and 5 could possibly be from the same set of parents, although there’s no matching burial to support that (however, “James Reynolds the elder” is buried in St Agnes on 24 June 1790).  On available evidence, perhaps both couples second son is called James.   

It starts to get tricky from 6 down to 10.  All of these children are sufficiently well spaced apart that either couple could be the parents. 

It’s tempting to group Jeremiah in with the parents responsible for Isaiah (number 12).  Also, both Isaiah and Kezia (number 11) are baptised around the age of 2.  Perhaps the commonality in their delayed baptisms implies that they belong to the same parents.

Isaiah and Elizabeth (number 13) are also both baptised on the same day, which strongly indicates that they are siblings. 

Thomas, number 14, isn’t a sibling of Isaiah and Elizabeth, because he is born one month before Elizabeth. 

There are a couple of other James and Elizabeth Reynolds children baptised in nearby parishes between 1786 and 1802.  Firstly, there’s Richard, born 16 Feb 1787 and baptised 15 Apr 1787 further west in Crowan.  If his birth isn’t allowed to raise the spectre of yet another James and Elizabeth Reynolds in the region, Richard could only be the younger brother of George 1 from our list.  There’s also an Ann Reynolds, baptised 27 Jun 1790 in Redruth.  It’s possible she belongs with George 2, Sophia Seymour and James 5 (but not James 4). 

It’s doing my head in, so I’m off to bed. 

But if some kind soul has any info to help rehome these St Agnes REYNOLDS children, your participation here would be very welcome and extremely valuable   

Best regards

Grant

Hello again readers

I just realised I should include the known children of William Allen and Jane Martin/Martyn of St Agnes, in case anyone has any info about them that might help to definitively sort out these families. 

They married in St Agnes on 05 August 1763.  William is a “sojourner”, but Jane is of St Agnes.  He signs, she doesn’t.  James Martin and <TBC> Cocking sign as witnesses.  Here’s the shrinklink:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hwg/

(See what I did there, Osprey!  Thanks  )

In terms of their children, so far I have identified:

•   Jenifer ALLEN, baptised St Agnes 14 July 1764
•   William ALLEN, baptised St Agnes 23 August 1766
•   Grace ALLEN, baptised St Agnes 05 July 1770
•   Thomas ALLEN, baptised St Agnes 20 May 1773
•   Catharine ALEINE, baptised St Agnes 22 June 1776
•   Thomas ALLINE, baptised St Agnes 06 May 1781

There are a couple of burials in St Agnes that are likely to be related.  Grace Allen, “dr of William”, is buried on 28 Feb 1769.  That’s before the 1770 Grace.  I can’t find a matching baptism. 

Also, an unnamed child of William Allen is buried in St Agnes in 1774.  I've assumed that's the 1773 Thomas. 

I think I indicated in a previous post that Jane Martin's father was probably James Martin - and quite possibly the very one who witnesses her marriage.  There's a James Martin who marries Grace Moore in St Agnes on 20 Dec 1739.   

Very best regards,

Grant

agree with you that Jean is a mistranscription, here's the original

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hwc/ 

Splendid - thanks Osprey - that's the record I'm familiar with.  I love your short URL links to the familysearch scans, by the way.   

What source are you using for the ages of William & Jennifer? There's nothing on the marriage to suggest they are under 21
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hwd/ 

There would appear to be 2 couples of similar name having children baptised in St Agnes at the same time
William Allen & Jane Martin who married 5 Aug 1763 & William Allein & Joan Dale who married 5 Aug 1775, both couples had a son called William, the older one being son of William & Jane baptised 23 Aug 1766. He may be the William who was buried 17 July 1831 aged 63 of Rinker's Wood.

I think the reason for the early marriage is obvious, married in Jan 1794 and John Paul Allen was born 12 April 1794 according to his baptism.

 

Yes, I think John Paul's birth in April indicates that William and Jennifer might have been a couple of trimesters closer to being parents on their wedding day!  The little scamps.   

The point you raise first in the quote block above is exactly my conundrum.  There isn't anything to indicate that William and Jennifer are kids on their marriage record.  However, when I look at the names of their children, I can't resist having Jennifer (b. 1775) and William (b. 1776) as the parents. 

William Allen and Jennifer Paul's first son in 1794, seconds after they tie the knot, is John Paul Allen.  Jennifer Paul (b. late 1775) has a father by the name of John Paul. 

Second child, and eldest daughter Mary Ann might well be named for Jennifer's mother, Mary Bray. 

Third child is William; he's clearly named for the paternal Williams. 

Fourth child is Elizabeth.  Not sure of the significance of that name - though it's pretty ubiquitous in the 1700s.  Both Jennifer (b. 1775) and William (b. 1776) have sisters named Elizabeth.   

Fifth child, though, is my Joan Allen.  And Joan is the name of the 1776-born William's mother. 

William and Jennifer have three daughters, but there is no "Jane" for Jane Martin.  Jane Martin seems to have been baptised in St Agnes on 06 December 1740, the daughter of James Martin (he probably witnesses their marriage too).  But James isn't commemorated in the names of William and Jennifer's children either.  All this makes me less inclined to think that Joan Allen's father William is the 1766-born son of William Allen and Jane Martin.   

Regarding this other contemporary Allen family from St Agnes, and just for the record, it seems probable that Jane Allen (nee Martin) is buried in St Agnes in 1810, aged 70.  This matches nicely with her 1740 baptism.  There's a William Allen, aged 80, buried in St Agnes a year later.  Both burial records indicate that they were living in Perranzabuloe.  If these burials are Jane and William, who's the other St Agnes William Allen that you've turned up, Osprey - the one from Rinker's Wood who is buried in St Agnes in mid 1831? 

I don't know, readers.  It really does seem like there's (at least) two William Allen families and either could be the correct ancestral line for Joan Allen (and John Paul, etc.).  Am I being too hung up on children's names, and overlooking something obvious, perhaps? 

Greatly appreciate all this help! 

Grant