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Messages - Timbottawa

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 93
1
The Common Room / Re: Finding a photo of a "terrible man"
« on: Thursday 18 December 25 10:58 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks for the replies. 

Inspired by re-posting the challenge, I may have made a breakthrough yesterday evening!  I had three avenues of hope: school photos, armed forces photos (he enrolled twice), or police mug-shots.  And I stumbled across a reference to seemingly exactly what I need - a book of photographs of criminals arrested in Scarborough in the 1920's - he was arrested in Scarborough in 1924.  The book is in Ripon Museum, and has not been scanned, so I will have to take a trip up to Ripon after Christmas to have a look through it.  Although it's not clear whether the photos are of ALL criminals in Scarborough in the 1920's, I have high hopes for this one!!!

2
The Common Room / Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« on: Thursday 18 December 25 10:51 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks Diana ... I had noted that death record, but haven't checked it yet.  Obviously it's worrying for my theory, as the decedent is exactly the right age, although the location, while near London, is not particularly close to his 1871 location (of course, under my theory he had moved to Southport, where his 2nd son was busy being born at this time!).

That's why I thought I would first lay out my theory to see whether anyone completely destroys it.  If not, then yes, I'll have to check out that death record.

3
The Common Room / Re: Finding a photo of a "terrible man"
« on: Wednesday 17 December 25 12:56 GMT (UK)  »
Norma ... somehow I missed your post, from over a year ago.

Thanks for directing my attention to the photos on the private tree.  That is my tree.  The bearded gentleman is Harold Alfred's father, and the young couple are my mother and father.  I still lack a photo of Harold Alfred.

Tim

4
The Common Room / Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« on: Wednesday 17 December 25 12:51 GMT (UK)  »
As we approach the 20th anniversary of this brick wall, and coming up to 18 years since I first raised it on RootsChat, I thought I would renew an appeal for advice and information.

Henry Thomas Butler was born in the 1840s (or possibly 1851), most likely in London (but no birth certificate has been found), and died in 1906 in Hartlepool.  He was an actor/theatrical manager/stage manager/comedian/artist.  He and his "wife", Margaret McHale, had 10 children, 7 of whom lived to adulthood, and spent almost all their professional life based in N.E. England.  No Butler-McHale marriage certificate exists.  Shortly after Henry and Margaret's first child was born in London, a son was born in London to Emma Deighton, an actress, who sometimes styled herself "Butler" (but no Butler-Deighton marriage certificate exists).  I believe that it has been demonstrated "beyond reasonable doubt" that the two children were both sired by Henry.

Shortly after the birth of these two boys, Henry and Margaret left London, never to return, all their other children being born in northern England.  I believe this was linked to the Deighton child - Margaret probably knew of/learnt of the birth and insisted that they distance themselves from London.

Henry and Margaret appear in the 1881 and 1891 censuses, and Henry in the 1901 census, shortly after Margaret's death.  Margaret also appears in the 1871 census, in Finsbury, as a married actress, boarding alone on census night.  I have not found Henry in the 1851, 1861, or 1871 censuses.

However ... an earlier post proposed that Henry Thomas Butler was actually born Thomas Henry (Sherwin) Butler, in Q1, 1851, to Edwin Henry Butler, a theatrical agent, who usually styled himself "Henry Butler".  Thomas Henry Butler is easily found in the 1851, 1861, and 1871 censuses, but thereafter disappears. 

The facts about Thomas Henry and Henry Thomas can be made to fit.  Thomas Henry is several years younger than Henry Thomas claimed to be, and 3 years younger than Margaret, but Henry Thomas may quite simply have inflated his age.  In the 1871 census, Thomas Henry appears as a married shipping clerk, but living with his parents and not with his wife on census night.  I had always assumed that Henry Thomas, being (or claiming to be) older than Margaret, was the one who got into theatre and then encouraged Margaret to become an actress, but possibly it was the other way round, if Margaret was indeed 3 years older.  She may even have appeared in a production put on by Thomas Henry's father, which is how they might have met.

I have almost convinced myself that Henry Thomas Butler is Thomas Henry Butler, but it is certainly not conclusive.  I would welcome comments and thoughts about whether I should indeed become convinced!

5
The Common Room / Re: Bankruptcy fraud?
« on: Friday 29 November 24 11:48 GMT (UK)  »
Thank you all for your explanations and clarifications.

I'm not sure I really understand the issue, still.  Many years ago, an elderly relative (it's where you're always told to begin!) commented that my grandfather had "got involved with a number of unscrupulous characters, especially Jack Gough".  Three elderly relatives independently claimed that he (my grandfather) had worked as manager of the North Bay cinema in 1922.  Jack Gough's argument with "Samuel Lawrence" was his poor performance managing the cinema and his drunkeness" - both attributes of my grandfather.  In the period 1920-23, my grandfather was living at an address that was described in at least one newspaper report as being Jack Gough's home address.  These are the reasons I believe my grandfather, actually Harold Boyle, was "Samuel Lawrence".

The previous year, my grandfather had been sentenced to 6 weeks in prison for defrauding the War Widows' Pension Fund after getting heavily in debt.  Before the war, he himself had been declared bankrupt in Bradford, so he had a long history of inept financial management.  So, to me, everything seems to point to an effort to avoid further punishment for (possibly) defrauding someone - but was it my grandfather defrauding Jack Gough?  Or he and Gough colluding to defraud someone else?  I just find it puzzling.


6
The Common Room / Bankruptcy fraud?
« on: Thursday 28 November 24 11:14 GMT (UK)  »
Apologies for showing my ignorance of (early 20th century) bankruptcy procedures ...

John Robert Gough appeared before a bankruptcy court in Scarborough in November 1922.  He told a curious tale!

He had been in partnership with a certain "Samuel Lawrence", running the North Bay cinema in Scarborough.  In August, the two of them had a huge argument concerning Lawrence's work habits/drunkeness, which resulted in Gough leaving Scarborough for 6 weeks.  On his return in mid September, he discovered that Lawrence, who had been entrusted with total financial responsibility within the partnership, had absconded with all the money, leaving him (Gough) bankrupt.  Subsequently, Gough had tried but failed to learn of Lawrence's whereabouts.

I believe (for reasons I won't bore you with) that "Samuel Lawrence" was an alias, and that Gough's partner was actually my grandfather.  And furthermore, that in November 1922 Gough knew exactly where my grandfather was, as he was living in Gough's house in Scarborough.

So this sounds like a crude attempt at fraud - but I can't figure out who is being defrauded.  At the time, if a bankrupt turned up in court and said "Sorry, m'lud, but my partner ran off with all the money", ...

a) would the court/police make efforts to pursue the abscondee?
b) what would be the consequences for the bankrupt person, in this case, Gough?

7
The Common Room / Re: Military service record: William Raper, (? - 1823)
« on: Sunday 24 November 24 13:20 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks Shaun.  If that William Raper is my fellow, he would have been 14 years old at the end of 1814.  Possible in those days, I suppose?

Yes, the will is probably the next step.


8
The Common Room / Re: Military service record: William Raper, (? - 1823)
« on: Friday 22 November 24 05:57 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks Graham ... I knew I was venturing into a "minefield", particularly because of the E. India Co. vs regular army question, to which I do not know the answer.

From the guide you linked me to, under "soldiers who died in service", I note "Registers of authorities to deal with the effects (possessions) of dead soldiers 1810-1822 in WO 25 ...".  Probate for my fellow was 1823, so unless probate was delayed (possible for a soldier who died in India, I suppose), I'm just outside the period covered.

But one thing that the guide did not answer - as far as I could see - presumably there must have been a death certificate of some kind in order to go to probate.  By whom/how would that death certificate have been issued?  Would it have been an army (/E. India Co.) - issued document, or would there have been some sort of civil certificate?  I can't find any!

9
The Common Room / Military service record: William Raper, (? - 1823)
« on: Thursday 21 November 24 11:15 GMT (UK)  »
The Prerogative & Exchequer Courts Of York Probate Index, 1688-1858 has a record for May 1823:

"Raper William, heretofore of Thirsk, but late of Calcutta in the East Indies, a Soldier and a Bachelor"

It seems clear that William was a soldier who died in or near Calcutta in early 1823.  However, I have been unable to find any service records on Ancestry or FindMyPast ... their coverage seems to start later.  Can any military expert please guide me to where I can uncover his military service record?

Thanks!

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