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Hi all

I just want to correct a slight error.  In my previous message I mentioned the place of birth of James TRAIES (junior, soldier) being given as St. Mary le Bow on one occasion - this should have read Stratford le Bow.  St Mary is the name of the parish church in that parish, so the full name of the parish was St. Mary, Stratford Le Bow.  (sometimes called St. Mary, Stratford at Bow).

If anyone is interested in the huge subject of the growth of the London parishes.  I suggest they look at the publications sold by the West Surrey Family History Society.  Many years ago, when I first stumbled upon London and Middlesex ancestors of my own (not TRAIES who belong to my husband's family) I bought a few of West Surrey FHS research guides and found them extremely useful, once I began to understand them.

The guides are all in my opinion very cheap to buy.  I bought

No. 2.  Suburban London before 1837, a map showing the Parish boundaries. (with a few notes on the reverse about the early parishes)

No. 6.  Genealogical Research in Victorian London and the accompanying map which shows the Registration Districts and Parishes in 1877.  (You need to have both of these to understand what the guides mean)

No 8.  A Genealogical Gazetter of Mid-Victorian London (to help find streets as they were in 1877, many of which changed names so will not be found on present day maps)

I've also got No. 33.  A Guide to Middlesex Parish Documents which includes Poor Law Records.

There are these and many others listed on the site of their publications for sale, some of them no doubt updated versions of those I have, plus new publications since I bought mine about 15 years ago (very little information on line then so I have made many trips to London visting various record offices and libraries in the past.

Best wishes
Bernice

Hi all,

I was glad to see the sudden burst of activity on the TRAIES board.  Thanks Bob and Kerry for the new information.

I wa pleased to get the burial record of Jane TRAIES, first child of James and Hannah in 1810.  We thought that Jane must have died as a baby as James named another daughter, Jane, many years later.  Thanks Kerry for that.

Regarding finding your way around the London parishes, it may help if you try to think of some of the parishes in the East end as forming a triangle with rounded corners.  The top third of the triangle is the large parish of St. John. Hackney.  The second third of the triangle is a row of three parishes being (from left to right) St. Leonard, Shoreditch, St. Matthew, Bethnal Green and St. Mary Stratford le Bow.  Below St Leonard Shoreditch is part of the City of London.  Below St Matthew Bethanl Green are three parishes, Christchurch, Spitalfields, St. Mary. Whitechapel and St. Dunstan, Stepney.  Below St. Mary. Stratford le Bow is St, Mary,Bromley St. Leonard.  Below this row of parishes are further small parishes stretching down to the river Thames itself.

I know that trying to understand the parishes and hamlets of London is not easy.  Even Bethnal Green and Whitechapel were originally part of the parish of Hackney, although by the start of the reign of Victoria in 1837 they were parishes in their own right.  By the end of Victoria's reign there were a huge number of parishes and many more churches were built.  Many of the new parishes were formed by splitting of original larger parishes.

I'm too tired to write more now, but I'll be sending another message soon, as I have a few comments I'd like to make in response to various recent messages.  If you are interested in seeing a map of the pre 1837 parishes I could scan it and send it to you in two halves.  I couldn't send it to the board and would have to send it as a private e-mail

Speak to you again soon.

Bernice

Hi all

Can't spend too long on this but just two more observations made yesterday.

Burial - 5 April 1822 at St. Marylebone (Westminster)
Hannah PRAIES but looking at original it is TRAIES.  Parents names are not given but the age is under 1 year.  I suggest that this is an infant of our James and Hannah, but as she did not survive, the name of Hannah was given to another daughter in about 1826 who was still at home with parents in 1851.

We already think that the Jane baptised in Old Church, St. Pancras in 1809 died in infancy as that is why another child was named Jane in about 1823 (who later married ROFFE).  I did not find any burial for the first Jane, but the burials are only indexed from 1813, so this could account for not finding the burial of the first Jane. 

In the same way this start date of 1813 could be the reason that no burial was found for the first wife of William TRAIES who must have died before 1802 or his second wife Jane who could well have died before 1813.

Bye for now
Bernice

Hi all (especially Deb and Bob)

My head's spinning as well Deb!

As you all know I recently found that the burial of Hannah TRAIES had taken place in St. Dunstan's, Stepney in 1818.  I was also intrigued to see that a marriage had taken place in the same parish in 1809 for a William TRAIES and Jane ANDERSON and decided to look at the image.

I think this could well be the William TRAIES that according to Bob is the uncle to 'our' James TRAIES. (just mentioned in a message from Bob!)  When I looked at the image of the marriage in 1802, I saw that William was a widower said to be of this parish and of the parish of MEOT (Mile End Old Town) and Jane was said to be of the same parish and a widower.  The marriage had taken place 20 Sept 1802.

I then looked at the image of the marriage of William TRAIES and Hannah KNIGHT which I also thought may be of interest due to the Chelsea/Kensington connection.  (I'd seen the entry in the past but not the actual image).  When this marriage took place in 1819, Hannah was a spinster, but William was a widower.

Both 'our' James and this 'William' were in the same parishes in the East End at roughly the same time and moved West at roughly the same time (if indeed the two William's are the same person).  

I think that William also had several wives (like James) and this is what is causing Bob problems connecting William the soldier (and a pensioner) and the young spinster Hannah  KNIGHT.

I think William married someone unknown before marrying Jane ANDERSON (hence being a widower in 1802).  Unfortunately, I cannot find a burial for Jane and if my theory is correct she must have died by 1819 when he married Hannah KNIGHT (when he is again a widower).

Like Deb, I discovered children to William and Hannah in St. Luke's, Chelsea, but did not make a note of all of them.  I did note the christening in 1819 of a child, Jane, and wondered if this was why Hannah had decided to marry someone so much older than herself.  As Deb suggested this child (Jane) died age 4 of small pox.  The address was given as Queen Street on both the baptism and burial entries.  I did note a baptism of James to William and Hannah (of Queen Street) but the date I have differs from that given by Deb.  I have 13 July 1830.  I will check this - maybe the James that Deb noted had died as a child or maybe one of us have the wrong date.  We both agree that the entry we saw said pensioner.

I agree with Deb that William TRAIES died at Queen Street in 1840 (14 February) and that he was 82 years at the time of his death.    

Well Bob, what do you think of my theory?  I suppose it is just a theory at the moment and not concrete fact.

I'll leave it there for now.

Bernice