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Messages - DNA

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1
Travelling People / Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« on: Sunday 17 November 13 04:56 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Naomi
Great to have you back.My wife's mum's marriage was one of our well established events and we don't have a Marriage cert.The marriage to Eric William George Sims took place 20/6/1931 in Greenwich at St Paul's Church  You will be able to get a cert faster than we can in New Zealand and hope you will be happy to share the info with us.Similarly can you give a link to the Solicitor as we would like to see what the provisions of the will were.Solving the source of this favourite Nans "private means" would be great .
Happy hunting
DNA

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Travelling People / Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« on: Thursday 15 August 13 04:05 BST (UK)  »
Hello there Naomi
Hope you are still willing to share any findings as the mystery for my wife still exists about her nan and granddad Frederick Alfred Pell.
Anything new ??
DNA

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Travelling People / Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« on: Saturday 13 July 13 04:41 BST (UK)  »
Hello there Naomi
Well at least we have established that my wife has relatives she had no idea about via her grandfather Frederick Alfred.Can you throw any light on his death and subsequent burial ?
Sorry we do not have a birth cert for Edna Marion Pell as the date was 100% established long before we started on the Constance Pell mystery.
Best I can do is give birth date and place    20/5/1906  St Marylebone  London  you are probably better placed than we are to speedily obtain a birth cert with address etc as we live in New Zealand.
We would be delighted to learn more about Frederick's offspring illegitimate or not ...though it won't throw much light on his actions unless their are family stories from them and their children.
Addictive stuff this.
Regards and hoping to hear more.
DNA

4
Travelling People / Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« on: Friday 12 July 13 05:38 BST (UK)  »
Hi Naomi
Well that was a bolt from the blue. I can add a fair bit to the story. Frederick Alfred Pell married my wife's grandmother Constance Purkis at St Pancras Church 26/9/1905.The most significant witness was a Ann Rintoul ,who ,to cut a long story very short.had adopted or fostered Constance when her mother Minna Tavener was deserted by the father William/Edward Perkis/Purkis (both names occur on birth cert /marriage cert)
The address given was 3 Leigh Street, Pancras London where Constance had lived from childhood  and even at one time using the name Rintoul.
The 1911 census shows Ann and Constance as visitors at the home of Mr and Mrs Simpkins in Letchworth Herts with my wife's mum Edna Marion aged 4 Occupation is "Private Means" The second  child Hilda is not recorded but should be ???.
Of Fred Pell there is no mention or trace that I can find. But in searching I did find him continuing his book keeping back ground (as given in the marriage cert) in the RASC pay corps He served from 1915 in France and rose to the rank of Sergeant acting Warrant officer.He seems to have done well and got the basic war medals but deserted in 1920.
Constance brought up the girls basically alone from about 1912 it seems but Mrs Rintoul was a real loving help. I can't give you any other addresses I'm afraid and my wife doesn't know either until Constance's Brighton years when she spent many happy weeks with her favourite Nan.
Of Fred the deserter (in both senses ) I did find a reference to the burial of a Sergeant Frederick Alfred Pell at Islington Cemetery with his RASC number S/186093   on 26 Oct 1947.
Final bit...my wife recalls that her Nan spoke often of her good friend Naomi.   Coincidence ? or do you know yet more etc etc
We look forward to a post from you that explains the connection.
DNA
 

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Travelling People / Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« on: Tuesday 21 July 09 06:04 BST (UK)  »

Hello Jaytoot
Returned from visiting daughters and grandkids (5yr old birthday party ! ).The Minna Taverner  you found could well be the right one. Constance Perkis was so clearly brought up by the Rintoul family;after the birth was recorded and William Perkis/Purkis disappeared and young Minna left to fend for herself.
When I was searching for the enumerator's actual Census record for 29 Argyle Street I got to the address only to find a message for that part of the street
"destroyed in fire".Can't say why it now appears to be there.
Thank you again for such great input.Unless there exists some record of travelling salesmen (groceries) I guess we will never find William and that chapter is closed.
DNA

6
Travelling People / Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« on: Monday 13 July 09 05:46 BST (UK)  »
Hi Kath and Jaytoot
 I am back on line after a 2 day power outage on the peninsula where we live .We wouldn't live anywhere else but there is a price when storms arrive.
You are so right again!
The birth was registered by Minna Perkis (yes with an e) nee Taverner 22/9/1882
Grays Inn Only one name Constance.Father William Perkis...Traveller(Grocery)The birth being reported quite a bit later on 6/11/1882.Resident 29 Argyle Street.Pancras.As i mentioned before, looking at the census takers records 2 years ago the 1881 details for that address were destroyed "by Fire" with the other side of the street being available!!
The MC witnessed by the now well known Rintouls and Mr Zucco records Constance as Purkis "u" as you so correctly guessed and Edward,not William,as father and simply"Traveller".
But it certainly looks as though you have found Frederick Alfred in 1914 to 1920 .What was he up to in 1911? He and little Hilda seem to have missed the count.Like those pesky Perkis lot in the 1800's
What a tangled web they wove .My Welsh Hughes and Griffiths ancestors were simple in comparison even though non conformist chapel records  are so sparse
Thank you yet again
DNA

7
Travelling People / Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« on: Saturday 11 July 09 04:28 BST (UK)  »
Thank you jay and katherine
I have drawn up a chart now that shows the Rintouls and their links to Constance Pell and includes all the info you have gleaned.It certainly illuminates Connie's life.
The disappearing husband Frederick Alfred Pell and the (unwed?) William/Edward Purkis and Minna /Wlhemina Taverner seem to have successfully avoided being together on a census or marriage cert.
Great work
DNA

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Travelling People / Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« on: Friday 10 July 09 06:35 BST (UK)  »
SteveG
but also Kath and Jaytoot.My scanner is let's say non functioning at the moment,so here goes with the MC.
26/9/1905 at the Parish Church of Saint Pancras
Frederick Alfred Pell 22 Bachelor .Cashier of 3 Leigh Street
Father Caleb Pell Gentleman
Constance.Purkis.Spinster. of 3 Leigh Street
Father Edward Purkis.Traveller
in the presence of
Geo de Sylla Zucco
Marion Newman
Ann Rintoul
Henry L Paget Vicar

As I mentioned before (sometime!) Caleb recorded himself as Charles in the 1901 Census when he was a coachman at Warberry Court Ditton Devon.
Previously in 1891 a coachman in Hampstead at a huge establishment.Where the Gentleman comes from heaven knows.
My wife and I have decided to send for her mum's MC (Edna Marion Pell ) in the hope that father's name occupation etc may be given or at least confirm he was deceased.
That 1911 Census information with Edna Marion being with mother Constance and Mrs Rintoul at Letchworth gives rise to question Where was poor little 3 yr old Hilda? With Marion Newman perhaps or(big or) dad.
My wife really loved her nan and all the time over the years she lived with her and she suddenly recalled today the exquisite furniture she moved into the house in Brighton from storage somewhere.Not your usual chipboard with a veneer!
The Sims and the rest of the Pells ,other than Fred,where so straight forward
to trace ,it's just those pesky Purkis/Perkis lot and poor Mina.
Great to have your help    ...DNA

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Travelling People / Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
« on: Thursday 09 July 09 10:15 BST (UK)  »
Thank you all very much,you are just brilliant.Now for me eating humble pie.
The comment about was William/Edward Purkis a Romany or "ordinary "traveller made me go back to the cert I obtained nearly 2 years ago and you pwople are just so right!
Underneath the Traveller is a bracket with(Grocery) written in.In my original excitement I didn't transfer this to the family chart and "traveller" seemed to fir into the odd stories about Constance and her life style viz gymnastics ,training with clubs,etc and her later life as very much a person with joi de vivre. My wife's family just didn't talk about her nan's past (quite different from mine)and the mystery of her independent means. When my wife was 7 or 8 she spent a lot of time with her nan who was living in a private hotel in Brighton.A season ticket at the theatre,trips to Paris from 1948 on.buying a house in one the streets leading down to the front etc. From 8 onwards her nan was a big influence in her life  a real "character".
So, many apologies but what you have found is amazing.Maybe Geo Zucco is the source of the moderate wealth Constance enjoyed?
Of course it doesn't solve the mystery of William/Edward and Minna/Wilhemina
If he was hlfway respectable surely he would have wed Minna but I can find no trace of a marriage.
I guess it will remain unsolved but all the things you have discovered add a real dimension to Constance.Fancy the posssibility of her having a relative?friend? in Marion Rintoul /Zucco/Newman who was a lady in waiting to the Queen.I have a Tydur/Tudor as a grt grt grt grandmother!!
The Purkis/Pukess family names are very much New Forest and the tinker/traveller was also something at the back of my mind but I was right up the wrong tree...apologies again.
If any other odd snippets arise I would dearly love to read them
Thank you all
DNA

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