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Messages - Lught-thie

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Wigtownshire / Re: A butcher, a baker... by the name of Wilson (possibly Sorbie, Wigtown)
« on: Monday 15 September 25 21:17 BST (UK)  »
Thanks. I'd been using death records on Ancestry, but I've started to look at GRO. The 1855 death record for James Wilson can't be the right one: it says he was 74, which is too old. But there is another death recorded in Ulverston in 1857 (08E, 349) that looks like the right one. (He definitely died before April 1858, as that's when Hannah remarried.)

Once I've a bit more time, I'll have a look at the various James Wilsons who were born in Scotland c1817 to a Thomas Wilson and see if I can narrow things down (both by eliminating those that can be eliminated and looking for supporting evidence - eg father a butcher, siblings called Wallace or Charles).

Thanks again for all your help!

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Wigtownshire / Re: A butcher, a baker... by the name of Wilson (possibly Sorbie, Wigtown)
« on: Monday 15 September 25 17:36 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: ColC on Monday 15 September 25 16:08 BST (UK)
I wonder if this is Hannah?
Hannah Lishman Baptism  1 April 1817
Brothers: William 1812 & John 1814
Lowick, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
Parents James Lishman, Anne Lishman

1841 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ2R-9G4?lang=en

If the above is correct and as James & Hannah’s eldest daughter was Elizabeth Ann, maybe they used both their mothers names, if so, I wonder if this could be James below, the only birth/baptism I can find with the mothers name Elizabeth, there are none for Hannah, and assuming they followed some sort of naming pattern?

JAMES WILSON
THOMAS WILSON/ELIZABETH MACFARLANE
18/07/1815
Bonhill, Dunbartonshire

Parents?
Thomas Wilson married Elizabeth McFarlane/MacFarlane 1/06/1799, Cardross, Dunbartonshire.
James above was the youngest child, siblings, all born/baptised Bonhill.
John 21/12/1800, Robert 3/08/1802, Janet 11/12/1803
Jean 28/04/1807, Elizabeth 9/04/1809, Donald 9/08/1811.

It may be worth looking at the records on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Do you know when and where James died, as I note that there are death records for a James born about 1815 in Ulverston.

Colin

That's fabulous, thank you. I'll have a good look into things once I get back from my mini-holiday.

Yes, that's the right Hannah Lishman. Baptised Lowick 1817, parents James Lishman and Anne Mount. However, there were Elizabeths on her side of the family. I believe she had siblings William Myers, John, Hannah, Elizabeth and Mary. (A James Lishman and an Elizabeth Lishman are listed as witnesses at Hannah's wedding.) Her parents' siblings included Susannah, Betty, William, Jane, John, Margaret, Molly, Betty and John.

That could suggest that the names Wallace and Charles came from James' side of the family.

James died in 1855 in Ulverston.

Thanks again for your help and I'll explore your suggestions shortly  :)

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Wigtownshire / Re: A butcher, a baker... by the name of Wilson (possibly Sorbie, Wigtown)
« on: Monday 15 September 25 17:16 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Forfarian on Monday 15 September 25 10:32 BST (UK)
There are 245 deaths of James Wilsons, born 1819 plus or minus 5 years, in the Scottish deaths indexes.

There are two with mother's maiden surname Simpson and three with mother's maiden surname Thomson. You could check these in the hope of eliminating them. You could even do the same for the rest of the James Wilsons with father Thomas.

Does James' marriage certificate say that his father Thomas was deceased? If not, you could try checking all the Thomas Wilsons in the 1841 census to see if any of them are butchers/fleshers. That could be a long job but you never know, it just might turn up an answer.

I wonder why James named two sons Wallace? Might there be a clue there?

Thank you! I'm currently away on a mini-break but I'll have a good dig into the various James Wilsons once I get back.

(There were two Wallaces because the first died in infancy.)

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Wigtownshire / Re: A butcher, a baker... by the name of Wilson (possibly Sorbie, Wigtown)
« on: Sunday 14 September 25 20:58 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: ColC on Sunday 14 September 25 11:16 BST (UK)
Do any of the records you have seen indicate that he was born in Wigtonshire?
I note on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk that there were 12 James Wilson’s father Thomas born/baptised 1817/1821.
Colin

No, I've no evidence that he was born in Wigtownshire; I only know that he was born in Scotland. I chose the Sorbie James Wilson as a starting point, due to the proximity to Carlisle (where James and Hannah married): I was hoping to find some evidence that would help me either eliminate him or provide corroboration.

Quote from: CaroleW on Sunday 14 September 25 15:41 BST (UK)
GRO online shows 2 children b Liverpool mmn Lishman

John Dec 1841
Elizabeth Ann 1844

I believe James and Hannah had 8 children: John, James Lishman, William Edwin, Wallace, Wallace, Charles, Elizabeth Ann and Hannah. I have found them on the censuses: in Liverpool in 1841, then Menai Bridge in 1851, then the widowed Hannah remarried (her second husband was Matthew Greaves) and settled in Ulverston.

5
Isle of Man Lookup Requests / Re: Seeking the parents of John Cain, blacksmith, of Baldwin
« on: Thursday 04 September 25 21:49 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Blue70 on Thursday 04 September 25 20:57 BST (UK)
Family Search has some useful IOM records concerning illegitimate births. Those cases that went to court:-

Diocesan orders of court without petition, 1786-1918 (includes illegitimate births)

https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/2031034?availability=Family%20History%20Library


C

Thank you  :)

6
Isle of Man Lookup Requests / Re: Seeking the parents of John Cain, blacksmith, of Baldwin
« on: Thursday 04 September 25 20:02 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: trish1120 on Thursday 04 September 25 11:43 BST (UK)
Familysearch  has a John Cain Christened  21 September 1823 Braddan, Isle of Man
Parents THOS Cain/Eleanor KELLY
Image has him as Illegitimate*

Maybe?
Parents MATTHIASCain and Isabella FAYLE chrsietened Marown;
THOS 23 Feb 1801
ISABEL 24 April 1803
MATTHIAS 9 Feb 1806

So guess this is the Will info?

Describe The Record (Notes)
Matthias Cain wd 4 July 1851, adm 1852, Marown, schoolmaster Baldwin; dau Isabella Cowley als Cain wife of James Cowley miller both beyond the seas; gdau Isabell Cain dau of decd*** son Thomas; son Matthias exor.

Thos Cain buried Braddan 12 October 1839 age 36

That's fabulous, thank you! While it's not 100% conclusive, I think you might have cracked it! I'd already rather tentatively linked William (John's son) with the William Cain, aged 28, who appears on the 1891 census living with an uncle, William Kelly, at Tromode, Onchan. (After the murder-suicide, William lived first with Catherine's brother, Charles Shimmin, and then with another Kelly family at Renscault, Braddan.)

So that would all fit, if John were the illegitimate son of Thomas and Eleanor. It looks like Thomas's children moved in with their grandfather Matthias after their father's death.

Thanks a million!


7
Down / Re: Patrick O'Brien: daughter Martha emigrated to England probably c1841
« on: Thursday 04 September 25 19:50 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: rathmore on Thursday 04 September 25 13:31 BST (UK)
find my past

1841 living at Outrake Gate, Ulverston John and Catherine born in 1816, Jane 4, Marthew 2 and William under 1.

they means must have got married about 1837? is this them on the census?

Mathew is spelt Marthew on the census.

Yep, that's them, thanks, living at Outrake Green, parish/township of Coniston Church.

I haven't been able to find a marriage for them. I've looked on Ancestry and on the Lancashire Parish Clerk Project (digitised parish records). A later census sees them living at Haverigg, near Millom - SW of John's birthplace of Broughton, whereas Coniston is NE - so it's possible they got married in Cumberland, rather than Lancashire. The Cumberland records don't appear to be anywhere near as well preserved as the Lancashire ones.

8
Isle of Man Lookup Requests / Re: Seeking the parents of John Cain, blacksmith, of Baldwin
« on: Wednesday 03 September 25 23:56 BST (UK)  »
Thanks. No, no marriage certificate, I'm afraid. The marriage was 19 Feb 1846 in German. Her father was John Shimmin (he was living with them at the time of their deaths).

9
Isle of Man Lookup Requests / Seeking the parents of John Cain, blacksmith, of Baldwin
« on: Wednesday 03 September 25 21:00 BST (UK)  »
Hi,

I'm trying to trace the parents of my ancestor, John James Cain.

John was a blacksmith and lived at St John's. He married Catherine Shimmin in 1846 and would go on to kill her in a murder-suicide in 1866.

The censuses give different birthplaces and ages for John; however, the newspaper reports into his death say the family came from Baldwin. He appears on the 1841 census at 'Ballamoday' (Ballamodda), living with Matthias Cain, schoolmaster, aged 75, who I presume may have been his grandfather. According to the census, he was 15 years old.

Matthias's will (4 July 1851) refers to three children: Isabella, Thomas and Matthias. So Thomas and Matthias Jnr are the prime suspects for paternity. For some reason I can't remember(!), I've a suspicion John may have been born outside of wedlock. Am I right in thinking that there are court or church records of illegitimate children?

Any help would be very gratefully received, thank you!

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