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Messages - sticksville

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1
Thanks both.

Sister would make sense of the line of inheritance.

There are some odd aspects to the case.
 
The Lord of the manor of Tollerton was Sir William Fountain, whose steward presided over the Court Manor which recognised Elizabeth Fountain as next in blood (Sir William's sister in law perhaps).

Robert the claimant at first said he was son of the original Robert but then solicitors for both parties agreed that he was the son of Henry, Robert's eldest brother. His move to Essex from North Yorkshire is unexplained, although in 1571 a Robert from Carlton Husthwaite admitted to fornication.

This case follows an earlier one in the Common Pleas which you both helped me with the Latin https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=892924.msg7671094#msg7671094. Robert won that one. Not sure how this one turned out.



2
The attached is a snippet from the case of Kytchingman v Fontans, concerning a property in the manor of Tollerton in the North Riding of Yorkshire. The documents in the National Archive are extensive but thankfully in English (my transcription runs to six pages).

The case hangs on who is the rightful heir of Robert Kytchingman: his nephew Robert K now living in Essex or Elizabeth Fountans widow? Elizabeth claims to be "next in bloude" and that the custom of the manor allows for male or female inheritance.

Unfortunately, the exact relationship between Elizabeth and Robert deceased is not clear. Please could anyone make out the word in the sixth line in the attached image, coming between "as defendt" and "and next of bloude"? I fancy it might be cousin, though I am surprised that a cousin would have precedence over a nephew.

3
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: 1627 Probate - help with Latin please
« on: Monday 02 February 26 16:08 GMT (UK)  »
Excellent

4
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: 1627 Probate - help with Latin please
« on: Monday 02 February 26 15:51 GMT (UK)  »
Ah that is subtle but interesting.

5
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: 1627 Probate - help with Latin please
« on: Monday 02 February 26 15:34 GMT (UK)  »
Thank you Bookbox.

George and John appear to have reconciled. George took on John's son as an apprentice a few years later and left loving brother John 20s for a ring in his 1659 will.

6
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: 1627 Probate - help with Latin please
« on: Monday 02 February 26 14:36 GMT (UK)  »
Thank you HD.

That confirms my suspicions about George. If anyone can make out the basis of his challenge, I'd appreciate it.

7
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / 1627 Probate - help with Latin please
« on: Monday 02 February 26 13:04 GMT (UK)  »
There are two register copies of the will of Clement Kitchingman, draper of Norwich in the National Archives, which I have been able to transcribe save the odd name. The copies of the will are in different hands but identical.

I would be grateful if someone could help me with the probate wording which follows the wills, which differ significantly

The second one dated 28 January 1627 appears to be standard, granting administration to Clement's son and executor John. PROB 11/153/79 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D888969

The first one dated 3 December  1627 is much longer than usual. It mentions George Kitchingman in addition to his brother John. As well as my usual difficulty with Latin, the film seems somewhat blurry.
PROB 11/152/779   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D890590

I have attached a limited screenshot to avoid copyright infringement but hopefully you will be able to download the full document from the National Archive.

Thank you again for your help.





By way of context, in his will Clement paid off George's debts to other relatives and left him an annuity. However, he evidently anticipated difficulties with George, as his legacy  was to be null and void if he troubled or sued his mother or brother John.



8
My reply #5 is carrying the wrong URL - I was trying to pick p this tome by John Guillim, 1679.
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125009310737/page/n3/mode/2up

Thank you for this link which certainly demonstrates that there were books of heraldic templates indexed by name.

Did stonemasons creating monuments in the greater churches and cathedrals have access to such volumes? These were highly skilled, specialist craftsmen (not the sort of stonemason who could knock you up a lintel) creating expensive, luxury goods. It is likely that the master mason at least would have been literate. They may have followed a paper template - but who produced that?

My query is how were arms granted to a minor North Yorkshire family in 1616 exported to Suffolk in 1652 with no apparent, direct family connection?

9
I think the question you should ask is how many C17 Stonemasons could read, and of those how many could afford to buy a book.

The article below suggests that 30% of adult men were fully literate. As people learnt to read before they could write, more would have been able to read.

Put it another way, would you have engaged a highly skilled craftsman to carve a Latin inscription on an expensive piece of marble if they were illiterate?

https://manyheadedmonster.com/2014/10/13/the-rabble-that-cannot-read-ordinary-peoples-literacy-in-seventeenth-century-england/

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