1
Cornwall / Re: Cornish Mystery
« on: Wednesday 10 April 24 19:17 BST (UK) »
Well done everyone, this is not only the largest thread on this entire site (I think) but it has also lasted for 18 years!
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2
Cornwall Lookup Requests / Re: Corsildia Jane Bartle
« on: Sunday 23 October 22 16:14 BST (UK) »
I suspect it was meant to be "Cordelia" but got garbled, and nobody in the family was any the wiser.
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Cornwall Lookup Requests / Re: Corsildia Jane Bartle
« on: Sunday 23 October 22 16:00 BST (UK) »
Maybe the registrar couldn't find room for the maiden name, but it certainly ought to say "formerly Bartle".
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Cornwall Lookup Requests / Re: Corsildia Jane Bartle
« on: Sunday 23 October 22 13:41 BST (UK) »
I have been researching the family of Jane Pascoe BARTLE who was born in the June qtr of 1888 in Illogan. Her wider family lived in the Forest area of Illogan, and she seems to have been an illegitimate daughter of Eliza Jane BARTLE, whose mother's maiden name was ELLIS. Eliza Jane disappears after the 1881 census but Jane is with Bathsheba BARTLE - the wife of Eliza Jane's brother Thomas Henry BARTLE - in 1901, as previous posters here have pointed out. Jane is not identifiable in the marriage or death records - not under that name anyway - between 1901 and 1911.
So there seems to me to be a reasonably good chance that Corsildia (or is it Cortildia?) Jane Ellis BARTLE may be the same person as Jane Pascoe BARTLE. If you haven't got the marriage certificate I recommend doing so, because that ought to confirm her identity. If of course she was illegitimate it will not name her father, but that would certainly narrow things down.
So there seems to me to be a reasonably good chance that Corsildia (or is it Cortildia?) Jane Ellis BARTLE may be the same person as Jane Pascoe BARTLE. If you haven't got the marriage certificate I recommend doing so, because that ought to confirm her identity. If of course she was illegitimate it will not name her father, but that would certainly narrow things down.
5
Somerset / Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
« on: Wednesday 11 March 15 20:28 GMT (UK) »
Okay, in 1861 is Joseph and Betsy Carter have a lodger named George Carter, aged 22, b Paulton, who I think is NOT their son of almost similar age. That son must almost certainly be the one in Llangattock with his uncle George Hughes/Hew. Joseph Carter (b 1813) has a sister Ann Carter (b 1809) who has an illegitimate son named George, baptised 21 July 1839. Ann is living in Paulton in 1861 with her younger son William, and George is not there, but only a few doors away are Ann's brother Joseph with his wife Betsy, and lodger George. I think George is Ann's son.
Moreover, very nearby is living William Jordan and his family. William is the father of Elizabeth Jordan - who isn't actually present in 1861. However, the closeness of these family groupings suggest to me that William Jordan is about to become the father-in-law of lodger George, who is due to marry Elizabeth Jordan on 4 Sep 1862. The marriage register entry gives no father's name for George, unsurprisingly. Yes, he could be George the base-born son of Fanny Carter who is aged 2 in 1841 and 11 in 1851, but I'd say the evidence points to George son of Ann instead.
George son of Fanny is one of two Georges in this large contemporary group that I can't trace after 1851. The other is the son of John Carter and Amy Bull, born abt 1837/8. The rest are done and dusted I believe!
Let's try an upload. I've converted the spreadsheet into a pdf file which I hope will work.
Moreover, very nearby is living William Jordan and his family. William is the father of Elizabeth Jordan - who isn't actually present in 1861. However, the closeness of these family groupings suggest to me that William Jordan is about to become the father-in-law of lodger George, who is due to marry Elizabeth Jordan on 4 Sep 1862. The marriage register entry gives no father's name for George, unsurprisingly. Yes, he could be George the base-born son of Fanny Carter who is aged 2 in 1841 and 11 in 1851, but I'd say the evidence points to George son of Ann instead.
George son of Fanny is one of two Georges in this large contemporary group that I can't trace after 1851. The other is the son of John Carter and Amy Bull, born abt 1837/8. The rest are done and dusted I believe!
Let's try an upload. I've converted the spreadsheet into a pdf file which I hope will work.
6
Somerset / Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
« on: Wednesday 11 March 15 15:59 GMT (UK) »
It's very gratifying isn't it, even if we solve just one of these along the way. I am now trying out a spreadsheet approach to all the George Carters born 1837-42 in Paulton. I won't go into any more detail now but they nearly all ARE accounted for. Will supply info later.
7
Somerset / Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
« on: Wednesday 11 March 15 09:42 GMT (UK) »
A little bit more digging. There's no birth registration for an Edward Hughes (or variants) around 1871 in the Crickhowell district, which covers Beaufort. There is an Edwin Morgan Hughes born Dec qtr 1870. In the 1871 census we have:
Prisk, Llangattock: Nimrod Hughes 40 iron miner b Paulton, Elizabeth 38 b St Mary Devon, Charles 13 b Bedwellty, Mary 7 b Bedwellty, William 5 b Beaufort, Edwin 6mo b Beaufort, William Jones (lodger) 24 iron miner b Malmesbury Wilts.
"Edwin" and "Edward" are sometimes interchangeable, so I think this is the Edward living with Betsy Carter nee Hew in 1881 in Paulton, stated to be her nephew. Nimrod Hew, bp 2 July 1826 in Paulton, is a son of James Hew and Mary Hewish. Ergo, Betsy is a sister of Nimrod. Betsy's son George Carter (bp 25 Dec 1839 Paulton) is therefore a nephew of George Hew/Hughes who is in Llangattock in 1861. So "relation" means in this case nephew.
We dig and we dig.... (bit we will never sort out the Carters).
Prisk, Llangattock: Nimrod Hughes 40 iron miner b Paulton, Elizabeth 38 b St Mary Devon, Charles 13 b Bedwellty, Mary 7 b Bedwellty, William 5 b Beaufort, Edwin 6mo b Beaufort, William Jones (lodger) 24 iron miner b Malmesbury Wilts.
"Edwin" and "Edward" are sometimes interchangeable, so I think this is the Edward living with Betsy Carter nee Hew in 1881 in Paulton, stated to be her nephew. Nimrod Hew, bp 2 July 1826 in Paulton, is a son of James Hew and Mary Hewish. Ergo, Betsy is a sister of Nimrod. Betsy's son George Carter (bp 25 Dec 1839 Paulton) is therefore a nephew of George Hew/Hughes who is in Llangattock in 1861. So "relation" means in this case nephew.
We dig and we dig.... (bit we will never sort out the Carters).
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Somerset / Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
« on: Wednesday 11 March 15 00:11 GMT (UK) »
That's a good list and I realise it is foolish to claim I have accounted for all of them. And I now think I am probably wrong saying that George the son of John Carter and Amy Bull is probably the one to marry Ann. But he is another to add to the list (and there is no baptism for him in Paulton.) In the census here he is:
1841, Paulton: John Carter 30 butcher, Amey 30, Thomas 14, Phebe 7, George 4, Samuel 1.
1851, Winterfield, Paulton: John Carter 44 butcher, Amey 44, George 12, Samuel 10, Elizabeth 8, Emma 6, John 4, Hannah 1, all b Paulton.
This George is not with his family in 1861.
But perhaps we can accept that the one who married Ann is the same one who is living with George Hughes in Llangattock in 1861. It would help to know what his relationship with George Hughes is. George must I think be George HEW (bp 24 Dec 1820 Paulton), son of James Hew and Mary Hewish. He married Margaret Lewis on 11 Mar 1852 in Llangattock (stated to be the son of James "Hughes"). I'm not bothered by the Hew/Hughes thing. It would be natural for a Welsh census enumerator and a Welsh vicar to take Hew as the common Welsh Hughes.
Number 4 on your list, George the son of Joseph and Betsy, comes into play now. His mother is Betsy or Elizabeth HEW. There seems to be no baptism for her but her age in the census suggests a birth date about 1817. I can't establish a relationship between her and James / George HEW, but there is a nephew Edward HUGHES aged 10 (b Beaufort, Brecon) with her in 1881 in Paulton.
I haven't managed to dig out anything more substantial - Edward seems to have disappeared after 1881. Betsy Carter nee Hew died in 1887. And George Hughes alias Hew and his wife Margaret seem not to be in the census after 1871 either. But I suppose a possible scenario is that George Hew/Hughes and Betsy wife of Joseph Carter are siblings. Edward is George's son. And these connections make it more likely that George Carter, who is with George Hughes in 1861, is the son of Joseph and Betsy Carter.
Then there's the conundrum of George Carter the lodger with Joseph and Betsy in 1861 - New Town, Paulton: Joseph Carter 48 coal miner, Betsy 44, Henry 14, Mary 9, Sarah 6, Felix 3, George Carter (lodger) 22 coal miner, all b Paulton.
Could he be enumerated twice (not impossible!)? Is George the lodger not Joseph and Betsy's son? I think I saw an earlier thread on this. The son is here, anyway:
1841, Paulton: Joseph Carter 25 coal miner, Betty 20, George 1.
1851, New Town, Paulton: Joseph Carter 38 coal miner, Betsy 34, George 11, Elizabeth 7, Henry 4, all b Paulton.
Hmm.
1841, Paulton: John Carter 30 butcher, Amey 30, Thomas 14, Phebe 7, George 4, Samuel 1.
1851, Winterfield, Paulton: John Carter 44 butcher, Amey 44, George 12, Samuel 10, Elizabeth 8, Emma 6, John 4, Hannah 1, all b Paulton.
This George is not with his family in 1861.
But perhaps we can accept that the one who married Ann is the same one who is living with George Hughes in Llangattock in 1861. It would help to know what his relationship with George Hughes is. George must I think be George HEW (bp 24 Dec 1820 Paulton), son of James Hew and Mary Hewish. He married Margaret Lewis on 11 Mar 1852 in Llangattock (stated to be the son of James "Hughes"). I'm not bothered by the Hew/Hughes thing. It would be natural for a Welsh census enumerator and a Welsh vicar to take Hew as the common Welsh Hughes.
Number 4 on your list, George the son of Joseph and Betsy, comes into play now. His mother is Betsy or Elizabeth HEW. There seems to be no baptism for her but her age in the census suggests a birth date about 1817. I can't establish a relationship between her and James / George HEW, but there is a nephew Edward HUGHES aged 10 (b Beaufort, Brecon) with her in 1881 in Paulton.
I haven't managed to dig out anything more substantial - Edward seems to have disappeared after 1881. Betsy Carter nee Hew died in 1887. And George Hughes alias Hew and his wife Margaret seem not to be in the census after 1871 either. But I suppose a possible scenario is that George Hew/Hughes and Betsy wife of Joseph Carter are siblings. Edward is George's son. And these connections make it more likely that George Carter, who is with George Hughes in 1861, is the son of Joseph and Betsy Carter.
Then there's the conundrum of George Carter the lodger with Joseph and Betsy in 1861 - New Town, Paulton: Joseph Carter 48 coal miner, Betsy 44, Henry 14, Mary 9, Sarah 6, Felix 3, George Carter (lodger) 22 coal miner, all b Paulton.
Could he be enumerated twice (not impossible!)? Is George the lodger not Joseph and Betsy's son? I think I saw an earlier thread on this. The son is here, anyway:
1841, Paulton: Joseph Carter 25 coal miner, Betty 20, George 1.
1851, New Town, Paulton: Joseph Carter 38 coal miner, Betsy 34, George 11, Elizabeth 7, Henry 4, all b Paulton.
Hmm.
9
Somerset / Re: Maria CARTER born about 1815 Paulton married to Peter GREGORY
« on: Sunday 08 March 15 17:59 GMT (UK) »
A couple of years have elapsed since this thread was started. It just so happens I was doing a lot of work on the family of Joseph Carter of Paulton recently, in conjunction with another researcher. You may be interested in the conclusions.
There are actually two Joseph Carters of similar age baptised in Paulton, one on 4 Apr 1777 (son of James and Anne) and the other on 27 Mar 1785 (son of Joseph and Prudence). The older Joseph married Margery or Margaret Carter on 25 Dec 1800 (she was buried on 20 May 1812), and the younger one married Mary Bull on 9 Mar 1812. Since the Mary Bull marriage pre-dates the death of Margery, we must be dealing with two different Josephs. Mary Bull is not a second wife of Joseph b 1777.
The following children are all baptised in Paulton between 1813 and 1831, stated to belong to a Joseph and Mary Carter: Grace 31 Oct 1813; Maria 16 Jul 1815; George 12 May 1816; George 24 Dec 1820 aged 3 years 9 months; Joseph 24 Dec 1820 aged 9 months; Isaac 7 Sep 1823; Daniel 22 May 1825; Phoebe 18 Sep 1831. These can’t all belong to the same couple, since both Georges lived to adulthood. Both married in Paulton within ten months of each other, and both were stated to be bachelors, therefore ruling out the possibility of the same person remarrying. One married Elizabeth Chapman on 26 Dec 1842 (witnesses Peter Gregory & Elizabeth Colmer), and the other married Mary Gregory on 7 Oct 1843 (witnesses Simon Gregory and Ann Bull).
It would seem obvious, then, that the older Joseph must have remarried, coincidentally to a Mary. This is borne out by the occurrence of two burials in Paulton - Mary Carter, wife of Joseph, on 4 Apr 1819, aged 34; and Mary Carter, buried 11 Oct 1832, aged 43.
As for the Joseph Carters, one died on 27 Feb 1843 and was buried on 5 Mar 1843. The informant at his death was Peter Gregory. The other Joseph died on 16 Jun 1847 and was buried on 18 Jun 1847. (In a strange quirk, the death certificate gives the surname “Wilkins”, which is mentioned, and corrected to Carter, in the burial register. It's probably just a simple error whereby a name has been mistakenly copied down from the local returns.) The stated ages strongly indicate that Joseph b 1777 died in 1843 and Joseph b 1785 died in 1847.
Peter Gregory married Maria Carter (b 1815, daughter of Joseph) in 1833. Not only is he the informant at the death of Joseph Carter in 1843, he is also a witness at the marriage of George Carter and Elizabeth Gregory in 1842. Logic therefore dictates that Joseph 1777-1843 is the father of Maria, and of whichever George married Elizabeth.
Grace Carter is with the younger Joseph in 1841. This means Grace is not a sibling of Maria, who is a daughter of the older Joseph. Other factors derived from the census indicate that Maria is a sibling of Daniel and Isaac, who were born after 1819, so their mother must be the Mary who died in 1832 not 1819.
The final piece in the jigsaw is a marriage on 4 Nov 1832 in Paulton (which I only discovered the other day): George Gulliford married Ann Carter, spinster, and the witnesses were Peter Gregory, Maria Carter and John Ashman. As usual in this saga, Peter Gregory is the key, a reminder of how incredibly valuable witness details can be. A check through the censuses reveals Ann with her husband George Gulliford in Timsbury in 1841, in Paulton in 1851, in Upper Machen, Monmouthshire in 1861, then a gap, and they are in Marylebone in 1891. Ann is consistently stated to be born in Timsbury, which is where we find this baptism: 8 Aug 1813, Ann, daughter of Joseph and Mary Carter. And also in Timsbury, 14 Oct 1810, Susanna, daughter of Joseph and Margery Carter.
I don’t think there is any doubt that Ann is a sister of Maria Carter who is a witness at her marriage. Her father is Joseph Carter 1777-1843, and Susanna is a child from his first marriage. There is a remarriage too – Joseph Carter, widower, married Mary Carter, spinster, on 25 Dec 1812 at Bath St James.
So by a convoluted route, we know that Mary Bull died in 1819, and Mary Carter nee Carter (who I think is the younger sister of the older Joseph’s first wife Margery, but that’s another story) died in 1832. The younger Joseph, with Mary Bull, produced Grace and George who married Mary Gregory. The older Joseph, via his two marriages, produced all the others.
Sorry for the length of this. It's complicated!
There are actually two Joseph Carters of similar age baptised in Paulton, one on 4 Apr 1777 (son of James and Anne) and the other on 27 Mar 1785 (son of Joseph and Prudence). The older Joseph married Margery or Margaret Carter on 25 Dec 1800 (she was buried on 20 May 1812), and the younger one married Mary Bull on 9 Mar 1812. Since the Mary Bull marriage pre-dates the death of Margery, we must be dealing with two different Josephs. Mary Bull is not a second wife of Joseph b 1777.
The following children are all baptised in Paulton between 1813 and 1831, stated to belong to a Joseph and Mary Carter: Grace 31 Oct 1813; Maria 16 Jul 1815; George 12 May 1816; George 24 Dec 1820 aged 3 years 9 months; Joseph 24 Dec 1820 aged 9 months; Isaac 7 Sep 1823; Daniel 22 May 1825; Phoebe 18 Sep 1831. These can’t all belong to the same couple, since both Georges lived to adulthood. Both married in Paulton within ten months of each other, and both were stated to be bachelors, therefore ruling out the possibility of the same person remarrying. One married Elizabeth Chapman on 26 Dec 1842 (witnesses Peter Gregory & Elizabeth Colmer), and the other married Mary Gregory on 7 Oct 1843 (witnesses Simon Gregory and Ann Bull).
It would seem obvious, then, that the older Joseph must have remarried, coincidentally to a Mary. This is borne out by the occurrence of two burials in Paulton - Mary Carter, wife of Joseph, on 4 Apr 1819, aged 34; and Mary Carter, buried 11 Oct 1832, aged 43.
As for the Joseph Carters, one died on 27 Feb 1843 and was buried on 5 Mar 1843. The informant at his death was Peter Gregory. The other Joseph died on 16 Jun 1847 and was buried on 18 Jun 1847. (In a strange quirk, the death certificate gives the surname “Wilkins”, which is mentioned, and corrected to Carter, in the burial register. It's probably just a simple error whereby a name has been mistakenly copied down from the local returns.) The stated ages strongly indicate that Joseph b 1777 died in 1843 and Joseph b 1785 died in 1847.
Peter Gregory married Maria Carter (b 1815, daughter of Joseph) in 1833. Not only is he the informant at the death of Joseph Carter in 1843, he is also a witness at the marriage of George Carter and Elizabeth Gregory in 1842. Logic therefore dictates that Joseph 1777-1843 is the father of Maria, and of whichever George married Elizabeth.
Grace Carter is with the younger Joseph in 1841. This means Grace is not a sibling of Maria, who is a daughter of the older Joseph. Other factors derived from the census indicate that Maria is a sibling of Daniel and Isaac, who were born after 1819, so their mother must be the Mary who died in 1832 not 1819.
The final piece in the jigsaw is a marriage on 4 Nov 1832 in Paulton (which I only discovered the other day): George Gulliford married Ann Carter, spinster, and the witnesses were Peter Gregory, Maria Carter and John Ashman. As usual in this saga, Peter Gregory is the key, a reminder of how incredibly valuable witness details can be. A check through the censuses reveals Ann with her husband George Gulliford in Timsbury in 1841, in Paulton in 1851, in Upper Machen, Monmouthshire in 1861, then a gap, and they are in Marylebone in 1891. Ann is consistently stated to be born in Timsbury, which is where we find this baptism: 8 Aug 1813, Ann, daughter of Joseph and Mary Carter. And also in Timsbury, 14 Oct 1810, Susanna, daughter of Joseph and Margery Carter.
I don’t think there is any doubt that Ann is a sister of Maria Carter who is a witness at her marriage. Her father is Joseph Carter 1777-1843, and Susanna is a child from his first marriage. There is a remarriage too – Joseph Carter, widower, married Mary Carter, spinster, on 25 Dec 1812 at Bath St James.
So by a convoluted route, we know that Mary Bull died in 1819, and Mary Carter nee Carter (who I think is the younger sister of the older Joseph’s first wife Margery, but that’s another story) died in 1832. The younger Joseph, with Mary Bull, produced Grace and George who married Mary Gregory. The older Joseph, via his two marriages, produced all the others.
Sorry for the length of this. It's complicated!