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@sparrett

I have added the link to reply #22, if that link does not work I can try other ways.

Thank you, I have done some looking with spelling variations, I think I may have even seen John's grandfather use the HAWKSWELL spelling.

I am very caught up on the fact that both the consent parts of their marriage certificate have been crossed out. This would have to allude to either them BOTH being of age, or related to the 'Aborigines Act' that was introduced 1905 but did not come into effect until April of 1906. This does explicitly state (section 42) that an Aboriginal woman is only permitted to marry another Aboriginal man without the 'permission, in writing, of the Chief Protector'. Doesn't this mean they would need permission from 'the protector' regardless of her age? I think it's something I will have to dive deeper into

I've really done nothing compared to my elders (who have journeyed out to the south-west coast), everyone before me has done the real research. I've just tried to make some sense of what's here. When I first started I figured DNA would be the key but as an amateur there's only so much I can explain with that.

I have just come across a member on Ancestry.com who seems to have attempted to digitalise some marriage and birth record details for Western Australia. It is very confusing. They have uploaded a profile for ALICE TIMKINS (b.1886) married to CHARLES EDWARDS GURNEY (b.1881) at Esperance 1906, in a tree called 'WA MARR BIR 03'. This could mean 1903, the year their first child was born.

I am thinking this could be someone who has access to marriage and birth records from Western Australia and these are details for their first born. I have attempted to make contact with the profile that owns this tree, but they have not been active in over a year. I have attached a photo with the tree highlighted for interpretations.

If that is true (which it still may not be, I need to verify), they have still listed Alice's age differently (notably younger than Charles). If they knew her age back then, what would have stopped them from just putting the same year (+/-) as her husband?

ADDED - Link to tree (hopefully it works): https://www.ancestry.com.au/family-tree/tree/3054134?cfpid=-1781752300&dtid=100

Tietkens went on many expeditions and I have *tried* to see if any contained a Thomas or Timkins but seemingly no luck. He was accompanied by some Aboriginal trackers but I have not been able to tie those men to any Mary or Alices that I think could fit. But I admittedly could keep exploring those as potential leads...

However the Thomas thing really throws me off because from what I have tried to track back, nobody recalls being told that Alice actually knew her father's name to be Thomas... But I would agree that's what's on her marriage certificate...!

@sparett

Yes interstitial keratitis can manifest for many reasons. But when I'm hearing hooves I'll say horses, not Zebras for now.

I suppose I'm looking for opinions or help either way, as it's all unverified. That's the problem. There's no actual proof of Alice's parentage either way (paternal and maternal). It makes starting anywhere very difficult. She is a 'brick wall'.

As mentioned by someone earlier, from her paper trail it looks way more like she originated in WA, and all I have to dispute that is the fact it's been passed down through oral history that she was raised at the Yalata Homestead where she was then somehow acquired by the Voakes (who later left Alice money, as mentioned above).

I spent a while researching Tietkens, as I figured he would be the best place to start given he was a well documented man back then (by comparison). Over the decades our family have procured his journals from his expeditions (both from him as well as other men he was accompanied by) and various correspondence letters to try finding any proof of him ever travelling with a 'companion', infant, or perhaps evidence of him sponsoring an Aboriginal child.

Neville Collins actually wrote a book about him (published 2016) to which one of my family members reached out about the possibility of him fathering an illegitimate child, which was seemingly dismissed (it is mentioned at the end of the book, but I do not have it anymore).

I myself thought it was strange nobody ever journaled, detailed, photographed or mentioned Tietkens as being one of the many (both) documented and undocumented men who had Aboriginal partners or fathered Aboriginal children back then. Furthermore, I find it odd that someone who had researched Tietkens so closely (Neville Collins) would dismiss the possibility of an illegitimate child if they ever found anything hinting toward that. I don't right now know what further steps I could take to access any existing restricted material about him or the area (Yalata, Fowler's Bay, Wookata, Coorabie) without going there (which is not an option right at this minute). Any suggestions?

I additionally tried to explore the Thomas Timkins name (as that's the father's name given on her marriage certificate) but I couldn't find a good match. If she knew her father was William Harry Tietkens, why put something as random as Thomas Timkins...? So many confusing questions that to me, point toward her just having absolutely no idea about when, where or to whom she was born.

But, I urge you to consider that Aboriginal people were heavily neglected and controlled at this time. It was not uncommon for Aboriginal people to be told they were an estimated age when it was not verifiable or correct just so the person documenting could put something down. This is what I have attributed her more recent hospital documents to (because if you didn't know when you were born or how old you were, at some point you're just going to have to pick).

Where would you recommend taking the course of this research? I fear I'm overcomplicating things by exploring leads with no proof, but it doesn't seem I can find legitimate evidence anymore. I appreciate your help and insight, thanks

Amber

The writing on Alice's marriage certificate is difficult to interpret, I'm not sure if it's the handwriting or how the document was scanned...

The name and profession given for the father *looks* to me like 'Thomas Timkins' and 'Explorer'.

I really struggle with handwriting, so I would appreciate if anyone could try to discern some of the handwritten text.

The surnames Alice has given for herself on her children's birth certificates vary. She has listed Timkins, Titkins, Tietkins, Voake and Tickins. I think it is safe to assume she did not actually know her given surname.

I will try to get my hands on her first-born's birth certificate, hopefully it does have her age and even some additional info.