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Messages - John hawthorn

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Armed Forces / Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Friday 25 April 25 08:26 BST (UK)  »
With regard to the Dedication Service of the four graves, as yet, with no names; I have now found out from Joint Compassion and Casualty Centre (JCCC of the MOD) that there will be representatives of Edmund Roberts' regiment, Royal Corps of Signals, in attendance, among others.  6 members of Edmunds family will also be there, including 1 grandson, 2 great grand children and 1 great great grandson.  Edmund died in the Chateau at Le Grand Luce, which was being used as a military hospital at the time, 48 hours before the Germans arrived - the hospital having been evacuated.  I hope that we might be able to visit the place he actually died.  However, it is a very, very exclusive hotel (and very expensive).  And of course it will not look anything like it did in 1940.

I had not previously heard of the JCCC.  Clearly they do a lot of marvellous work researching and finding lost fallen heros.

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Armed Forces / Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Thursday 03 April 25 11:42 BST (UK)  »
I have contacted the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre regarding the matter as to whether Edmund's regiment, Royal Corps Of Signals, were aware of the Rededication Service and received this response:-

"I have been in contact with The Royal Corps of Signals. The service will be attended by 2 of their soldiers, a Padre from The Royal Regiment of Artillery, a trumpeter from The Royal Welsh and a soldier from The Royal Armoured Corps. We have 7 soldiers we will be holding rededication services for that week, 4 at Le Grand-Luce and 3 in Normandy. These regiments represent nearly all of the regiments who the soldiers we are commemorated belonged to."

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Armed Forces / Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Wednesday 02 April 25 14:54 BST (UK)  »
Andy - Many thanks

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Armed Forces / Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Wednesday 02 April 25 13:52 BST (UK)  »
Andy J2022  I thought you would like to know that there has been significant progress on the search for Edmund Roberts grave.  Recap:  He died 13 June 1940 in the Gen. Hospital No:9 at Le Grand Luce.  There are 4 unidentified graves and 2 vacant plots in the CWGC cemetery at Le Gran Luce.  The hospital records said that 3 RAF OR were brought into the mortuary late on 14 June - 2 identified & 1 unknown.  I had already establishe that 1 unidentified grave was almost certainly Major Richard Cooper-White; 1 was Edmund Roberts; & 1 contained a button from the uniform of the Royal Atillery.  I contended with CWGC that the body count from hospital records correlated to the number of the graves in the cemetery, including the RAF OR's.  They responded that 2 RAF OR's were exhumed and relocated with their other crew colleagues elsewhere (no names, squadren or details provided despite my request for these).  So we now had 2 unidentified graves and 2 people, Edmund Roberts and the unidentified RAF OR.  I have now been informed that the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (JCCC) have accepted that Major Cooper-White is in a specific grave; that Gunner Joseph Humphries is in the grave where the Royal Artillery button was found; that Edmund Roberts is in 1 of the 2 other graves; and, Private William Falconer (service number 2976134 - Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders) is in the other.  There will be a rededication ceremoney on 24 June 2025, at the cemetery in Le Grand Luce, to confirm this.  I and a few other family members will be there.  I have tried to engage with the Royal Signals Museum to see if they are interested, but have had absolutely no response.  I have not been able to square off the hospital records suggesting the third, unidentified RAF OR with the JCCC establishing it is Private William Falconer in the 4th grave.  Interestingly he appeared in casualty list 236 as "died" and again in casualty list 352 corrected to "died as a result of an accident 14 June 1940".

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Armed Forces / Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Monday 04 November 24 16:58 GMT (UK)  »
AndyJ2022 - Thank you.  It is not my intention to suggest splitting the thread, merely to emphasise that it is in my interests to research the fate of the three RAF OR airmen as their resting places seems to be so closely linked to that of Sig. Edmund Roberts.  I realise that I made a typing mistake; Edmund had ONE leg amputated.  Which I would have thought still significant, but CWGC said that at the exhumation the bodies were very badly decomposed.  ID tags???  I would have expected these to have been found.  One "unknown" body in the cemetery was eliminated from my enquiry because a Royal Artillery button was found, again no ID tag?.  Presumably this poor sole was killed and brought to the mortuary, then buried in his uniform.  Whereas, Sig. Edmund Roberts had been in hospital for two weeks before his death and will presumably be in hospital gowns.  He was originally in Hospital No:13 before being transferred to hospital No:9.  So I would imagine his uniform would not have been with him.  Who knows what state the unidentified RAF OR was in when admitted to the mortuary? I will keep plugging to establish who and where re resting places for both.

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Armed Forces / Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Monday 04 November 24 16:29 GMT (UK)  »
The Chateau du Grand-Luce (now a luxury hotel), following a direct approach by e-mail,  have provided the attached copy of a page from a book "Les Jardins du Luce" by Pierrick Bourgault.  I am advised that part translates to "on a night in June the Germans arrived and took away lots of medical equipment and the municipality was charged with burying the dead who had been left behind". Copy of page attached.

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Armed Forces / Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Monday 04 November 24 16:16 GMT (UK)  »
Bushinn1746 - Many thanks for your post.  To reiterate:- my objective is to find the grave of Signalman Edmund Roberts (Service No:- 2572212).  A number of records confirm that he died in General Hospital N0: 9 on 13th June 1940 from gunshot wounds.He was a Despatch Rider.  He suffered g/s wounds to both legs and was amputated before he died.  We speculate that he might have been strafed by enemy plane. My research confirms that one Army OR died in hospital 13th June and 3 RAF OR were brought into the mortuary on 14th June.  With regards to the RAF personnel the records say that arrangements were made for the locals to bury them as the hospital was evacuating.  This is almost certainly the case with regard to Edmund Roberts as well.  Until recently I believed the 2 "vacant" graves and the two "Unknown" graves would account for the four in the hospital records.  Therefore, I believed Edmund Roberts could be in one of four plots.  Last week I learnt for the first time that the "vacant" plots HAD contained RAF personnel, but their bodies had been removed to be buried along with the rest of their crew.  CWGC did not give me any further details (no names, no new burial site).  Do I understand from your post you do have these details.  In some respects the new information does move me forward a small step.  I can eliminate the two "vacant" plots as being Edmund Roberts resting place.  This leaves a conclusion that of the two remaining "Unknown" graves one is Edmund and the other the third RAF OR brought into the mortuary on 14th June.  What is the likelihood a family is searching for a missing RAF OR who was in fact from the same crew as the two RAF OR who were moved?  AS that person was unidentified, as was Edmund, they would not know which body to move IF they knew that three RAF OR's were once together.

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Armed Forces / Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Friday 01 November 24 14:45 GMT (UK)  »
I have been advised that this method should provide a link to the WO.117-1147 diary pages of General Hospital 9 - dates 12th - 15 June 1940, which I referred to in my post above.

https://imgur.com/a/EipOeWX

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Armed Forces / Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Wednesday 30 October 24 17:41 GMT (UK)  »
A new attempt to post my diagram of the graves at Le Grand Luce.

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