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Hello all,

Could someone with access to the 1921 census (particularly, I suppose, via FindmyPast) please report the information or a photo of the following person:

Margaret
O'Brien
1833
Armagh, Ireland
Lowside Quarter
Whitehaven
Cumberland

I would be really grateful, thank you.

Helps in the sense that most RC parish records are on-line on various sites such as FindMyPast, Roots Ireland and the National Library. However Drumcree’s RC records don’t start till 1844. Your family were evidently in England by 1841 so you are probably out of luck.

Incidentally re the age rounding down in the 1841 census, that applied to adults but people aged 15 and below were supposed to have their actual ages recorded. Can still be wrong but probably not too far off.

Do you know where Drumcree's records are hosted? The family actually only appears in 1861, not 1841 or 1851, and the youngest daughter was apparently born in Ireland ca. 1846, so she should still show up in those records. I've assumed it's due to the potato famine or fallout after it, as Cumberland received a huge amount of Irish immigration due to it (to the point Cleator Moor became known as "Little Ireland" and had to build a Catholic church). This could match well with leaving after 1852 but before 1861, and missing the 1851 census.

Thanks for the information. I went for the Llanrwst birth as it seemed the most likely, and it was right on the money:

seventh of August 1838, town of Llanrwst | Samuel | boy | John Roberts | Jane Roberts, formerly Jones | hatter | the mark of X Jane Roberts, mother of the child, Bridge Street | eighth of september 1838 | Rob. Thomas, deputy registrar

This is definitely Samuel Roberts from the later censuses, so this confirms the children were actually from Denbighshire and that the marriage should actually be between John Roberts and Jane Jones. This tracks with her later marriage, so her father being Evan Jones can be accepted as well (though to be further confirmed).

I've also realised that "Ann Jane" may actually have been "Jane Ann" and flipped the names out of preference. This would mean looking for a Jane (Ann) birth rather than an Ann. Whetever the first name, it doesn't really narrow it down. I felt hopeful about a "Jane Anne Roberts mnm Jones" in Corwen (GRO Reference: 1843  M Quarter in CORWEN UNION  Volume 27  Page 155), but it's not her.

Hello all,

I'm hoping to ask for some assistance on a long-standing brickwall in the family tree. It centres around the couple John Roberts (1811–bef. 1851) and Jane Hughes (1816–). The initial point of reference is their children, Samuel (1838–1890) and Ann Jane (ca. 1841–1908). Both appear in Cumberland in the later censuses of the 19th century, listed as being born in various locations around Bangor and Anglesey. Their parents are confirmed on the earlier censuses and their marriage certificates. The mystery, then, is more information on their parents. I don't know when they married, or anything much about them. Jane remarried after John's death; marrying a Thomas Murray in 1847 (so, cautiously, John can be said to have died bef. 1847, not just by the time of the 1851 census). This leads to its own set of problems with a mysterious Murray daughter who disappears after one census and a seemingly duplicated line in the census, but that's a topic for another thread.

I would be really glad to have some assistance in finding out more about John Roberts and Jane Hughes before John's death (and including pinpointing his death), particularly their parents. It's very clear from my Ancestry DNA matches that I'm related to a lot of Roberts and Hughes in Wales, but I've not been able to pinpoint how without the parents of my couple.

I will list all of the sources below. To summarise, however, John Roberts is stated to be born in Amlwch and a hatter by trade. There may be some ties to Llanbadrig and Tynycapel. Jane is listed as born in Anglesey. Ann Jane, complicatedly, gives "Holywell" or Bangor in different records. Incidentally, though I said ca. 1841, her birth year is extremely volatile, ranging from 1841–1848 depending on the record. Samuel gave Anglesey, and the birth date of 1838 seems surer and more stable. That's about it for the Welsh context, I'm afraid.

John
England and Wales Census, 1841 (HO107 1362/2/51 6)
Marriage certificate of John Rowe and Ann Jane Roberts

Jane
England and Wales Census, 1841 (HO107 1362/2/51 6)
England and Wales Census, 1851 (HO107 2175/440 10)
England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005 (1847, Vol 27 p. 382)

Samuel
England and Wales Census, 1841 (HO107 1362/2/51 6)
England and Wales Census, 1851 (HO107 2175/440 10)
England and Wales Census, 1861 (RG09 3951/78 44)
England and Wales Census, 1881 (RG11 5191/56 29)
Marriage certificate of John Rowe and Ann Jane Roberts

Ann Jane
England and Wales Census, 1851 (HO107 2175/440 10)
England and Wales Census, 1881 (RG11 5191/103 19)
England and Wales Census, 1891 (RG12 4317/64 64)
England and Wales Census, 1901 (RG13 286/56 49)
England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915 (1867, Vol 10b p. 751)
Marriage certificate of John Rowe and Ann Jane Roberts

Thank you all for the information and help! I realised a bit late that I should probably have listed all of my sources! Here is what I had; I have only added the reference for Henry in the 1851 census, which I didn't know about (only 1861).

Selina Row
England and Wales Census, 1861 (RG09 3952/59 3)
England and Wales Census, 1871 (RG10 5263/54 6)

Re: the O'Briens, I was able to painstakingly confirm this as Selina's father John Roe's death certificate lists an O'Brien grandson as the informant.

Henry Tyson
England and Wales Census, 1851 (HO107 2437/508 12)
England and Wales Census, 1861 (RG09 3953/77 9)
England and Wales Census, 1871 (RG10 5263/54 6)
Death Certificate of Henry Tyson

The death certificate corresponds to the Bootle Workhouse Henry Tyson. I had always assumed the family was quite poor, but as I've said, the sheer number of Tysons (and Rowes) in Cumberland confuses matters quite a bit. One of the possible fathers for Henry was a known local thief. If Catherine Gertrude Elmes is the right Catherine, and did not exaggerate the "Esq.", I agree that we could probably cautiously exclude Workhouse Henry.

Henry Tyson (son)
England, Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 (1866 in Gosforth)
England and Wales Census, 1871 (RG10 5263/54 6)
England and Wales Census, 1881 (RG11 5197/76
England and Wales Census, 1891 (RG12 4322/71 14)

Sorry if the birth record isn't cited in the best way, but I never quite figured out what Ancestry was actually representing with that collection.

Catherine Tyson
England and Wales Census, 1871 (RG10 5263/54 6)

An interesting possible connection I've noticed is that Catherine Elmes seems to bequeath something to members of a Bell family; Henry (son), if I have the right person in 1881 and 1891, was a boarder with a Bell family.

The other two children, Hannah and James, have their births and deaths in the GRO, but I'm not sure of the details. I do have James Tyson's birth certificate from the GRO:

6th June 1873, Church Lane Egremont | James | Boy | Henry Tyson | Selina Tyson, formerly Rowe | Farm labourer | + The mark of Selina Tyson, mother, Church Lane Egremont | 9th July 1873 | John Walter Registrar

I'm not sure his death certificate will provide much extra information, and haven't ordered a digital image of it (yet), but it's in the GRO for the next quarter of the same year. Hannah was born in 1868 and died in 1869.

As a post-script, if anyone is interested in chasing up Henry's father, I am mostly (tentatively) convinced by a marriage between a Henry Tyson and Elizabeth Benson in St James, Whitehaven, on 2 Sep 1815, but have not found the corresponding birth certificate.