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London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Registration of Death
« on: Sunday 30 March 25 15:03 BST (UK) »Continued
From Brian
2. The information I provided regarding Edmund's birth was based on 3 Census records and his death registration, none of which concur on his date of birth. With the kind help of people on this forum I have located 2 more Census records attributed to him and none of them have the same DOB either. The first one pushes his DOB back to 1821. ......
In those days there was not the stress on birthdays and celebrations as we know them now. Many were illiterate and had no way of knowing the correct date of birth. Baptism/marriage registers are valuable but many records were not kept. You are very lucky that you have got back quite a distance without running into this. There is a saying that in the times when people did not know their ages or different spellings of their names that the marriage certificates may be better regarded as sources. This was because at least the names on MCs at least may have been dictated to a parish priest from a person's own knowledge - not the case with births or deaths obviously.
From Brian
3b. You state that 'After all it was and is the case that you can change your name at will, no marriage required in any case'. I would therefore kindly suggest that your first answer is technically incorrect and the one kindly provide by 'KGarrad' on page 1 of this thread is correct. They stated 'A death registered in England or Wales will be under the name the person was known by.
Or, more likely, the name the informant knew them by.'
Again a point to realise is that we are talking about the Irish here. Once a woman married she was known by her married name. It was only really in Scotland that there is a strong emphasis on maiden names. This has carried over to an extent to the north of Ireland where there was a Scottish/Presbyterian influence. Though those Irish who did keep the maiden names alive in children's names to a certain extent were often likely to give a second name to a child that harked back to a respected figure in the community rather than a maiden name.
This has more info.
Traditional Naming Pattern
A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the later 19th century:
First son usually named for the father's father
Second son usually named for the mother's father
Third son usually named for the father
Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother
Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother
First daughter usually named for the mother's mother
Second daughter usually named for the father's mother
Third daughter usually named for the mother
Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister
Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister.
From here
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Ireland_Naming_Customs
So to research back, a knowledge of first names, short names/forms is essential...then getting to know that Nancy & Agnes, Bridget & Delia (Bedelia) may be interchangeable, May/Mary/Molly etc etc. Timothy/Thaddeus
Hi again shanreagh,
thanks again for the further information. You stated here:
'In those days there was not the stress on birthdays and celebrations as we know them now. Many were illiterate and had no way of knowing the correct date of birth. Baptism/marriage registers are valuable but many records were not kept. You are very lucky that you have got back quite a distance without running into this.'
I understand the point you make here and I certainly agree with it. My main tree which predominantly features my father's side of the family goes back to the early 1700's on a number of branches. There is about 3,000 people on it to date, which will probably seem quite small to a number of people on this forum. I frequently see that the dates given can fluctuate, but to be honest, not often by a great deal. I would say three years is probably average, and a lot of this can be explained by when the census date falls in a year, or if the person was born late in one year and recorded/registered early the next. I can't recall any other ancestor whose DOB fluctuates as much as Edmund D'arcy on official documents, or indeed the discrepancies recorded for his children. This prompts me to consider whether he was visited many times by incompetent census takers, was very muddled, had a strong accent or was deliberately obfuscating. It is noteworthy in comparison to my other ancestors.
I have a suspicion that the naming pattern you have provided will be invaluable going forwards and I really appreciate you passing it my way. Thanks again for taking the time to make these points, and I will certainly attempt to link to this post when I return for my help with my Irish and RC forbears.
Kind Regards,
Brian
