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When and where did this couple marry?

In all the newspaper accounts of the death of this couple, 1867 - What names do you see in the newspaper articles for the children? What ages do you see in the newspaper articles for the children? What do you see in the newspaper articles to indicate the number of children left as orphans at 1867?

The newspaper articles don't give more details about the kids - I've attached an article to this, and another's quoted at the end.

And I don't know when they married. It was before civil registration and the marriages in the parish records for Castleconnell start in 1863. I'm basing it off the fact that Thomas was 38 and Catherine was 34 when they died in 1867. I'm fairly certain they married in Castleconnell parish because Thomas's brothers also lived there, and there's no marriage for a Catherine Hanifan and a T Fitzpatrick in all of Ireland during this period. I've checked using RootsIreland, which has a comprehensive index of the parish records.

The news item I think you are mentioning here was for the death of a man in 1937 in Melbourne.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11111832

Sue

Thanks for the correction - that's what I get for posting right before bed!

Just to discount him further, trying to work out whether this Martin FITZPATRICK (who died 1937) lived alone: he lived at 37 Tribe St, South Melbourne (according to the probate advertisement). At the same address in 1940 a James FITZPATRICK died.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204391169
No mention of a Martin (deceased) among the family mentioned in this death notice.

A coincidence of names, or are they family?

Modified to add:
This death notice for Catherine FITZPATRICK in 1934, of 37 Tribe St South Melbourne, doesn't have a mention of a Martin either.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204811250

But it seems there were a family of FITZPATRICKs at the address, so I think you can assume the Martin who died there in 1937 was probably not yours. 

That's some great detective work, thank you so much!

so the will extract I posted is not your guy?

I think the one you posted is the most likely to be him - I wonder if Nellie Walsh might have been the lady he was "boarding" with (delighted to know I'm not the only one suspicious of that!). My local library has access to FindMyPast, so I'll see if it has access to the Australian probate stuff too.

The Garvey connection is also quite interesting - having a cursory look at Castleconnell parish, a Catherine Garvey is baptised there to Thadeus Garvey and Ellen O'Donoghue in 1864. And the most likely option for Rev. Garvey himself is a James Garvey born in Hospital & Herbertstown parish in 1841.

James has two brothers named Timothy, and there's a marriage between Timothy Garvey and Ellen Donoghue in Limerick city itself in 1854. They apparently lived there until Catherine's birth and his name varies between Thady and Timothy. So it looks like Rev. James Joseph Garvey had relatives locally.

(Later edit: One obituary explicitly says he was born in Herbertstown parish and he went to the same school as John, so that's likely the connection - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/115468122)

And here's that article from the Cork Advertiser, 12th January 1867:

A MAN AND HIS WIFE DROWNED

Limerick, Monday 7th Jan. - A very painful sensation was created yesterday in the vicinity of the Canal Harbour, off Irishtown, in consequence of the bodies of a man and a woman having been found drowned in the basin at the Limerick side of the City of Dublin Company's Stores. Shortly after 7 o'clock in the morning a donkey, with car attached, were discovered in the water near to one of the flood-gates, the animal quite dead; and from a noise being heard about 8 o'clock on Saturday evening, as if a person had been drowning, it was conjectured that the body was close by.

The police of George's-quary Station, under Constable Shea proceeded to the scene, and a boat and grapplings having been procured, men proceeded to drag the bed of the canal. [...] It turned out to be that of a female named Catherine Fitzpatrick, of Knockbrack, near Annacotty, wife of Timothy Fitzpatrick, a respectable shoemaker, who, it was then ascertained, had also been missing, both having come into town, a distance of three miles and a half, upon a donkey's car on Little Christmas Eve [January 5th], to purchase necessaries for themselves and their children.

The search having been continued, the body of Timothy Fitzpatrick, the husband, was picked up in about an hour after that of his wife had been discovered. [...] The sad occurrence attracted crowds to the canal, and the relatives and friends of the unfortunate couple having come in from the country to look after them, the scene which took place was heartrending. [...] What renders this melancholy occurrence still more painful is, that the woman was enceinte [heavily pregnant], and known to be within a fortnight of her confinement. She was aged 34 years, and her husband 38.

When did the parents die......date of the obituary?

Did sister Mary marry, and what married name. There might be an enquiry in a newspaper after Martin...ie...."sister Mary **** anxious to hear from you"

What town in Limerick did they live in?

Did older brother John become a shoemaker?........and might be the trade of Martin? [...]

Below...do you mean that you have Martin's name in a baptism record....when and where?

"He also visited Ireland around 1902 when my great-grandma was five years old, as he was her godfather."

His parents died in January 1867 - they drowned in an accident that made a lot of the newspapers, sorry for not clarifying that bit! There's not a traditional obituary for them because of that, just articles on their deaths and subsequent inquest, especially as Catherine was heavily pregnant at the time. I'll include the relevant bit of one of the articles here, I can PM you the rest if you want.

On Saturday night a man named Thomas Fitzpatrick, a shoemaker, residing in Knockbrack, in this County, along with his wife, was accidentally drowned in Canal Lock [...] The deceased leaves three children unprovided for.

They lived in Knockbrack at the time of their deaths, but John and Mary both move a lot between several neighbouring areas - Annacotty, Annaholty, Lisnagry, Richhill, Kishiquirke, Mountshannon. Castleconnell also shows up a lot as all of those towns/villages were in that district.

Mary married Patrick Murphy, RIC, in 1895 and lived in Tipperary afterwards, while John (my grandma's grandad) became a school-teacher. Their relatives apparently sold off the family land after their parents' death so John could train at a Jesuit school - not sure if John is older or not.

Assuming that your great grandmother was not baptised as a five year old, I read this to mean that Martin FITZPATRICK was present on the occasion of the baptism.....which happened where and when?

Martin FITZPATRICK left Ireland after this time (of the baptism) and returned to Ireland about 1902 when your great grandmother was five years old.

Weirdly no, Martin Fitzpatrick isn't on her baptismal record, but my grandma is certain he was her godfather. I've assumed that it was a matter of inconvenient timing and he was an extra godfather - we've had similar things happen in my generation. My great-grandma's (Mary Kathleen Fitzpatrick) godparents on her baptism were Patrick and Mary Ryan, who were maternal relatives of hers.

No mention of where he was in Ireland. Lots of Fitzpatricks in Co Donegal.
The Irish end may ahve some clues.

cheers
Jack Gee

Their family is firmly from Co. Limerick - there's not many other Fitzpatricks in Limerick in the 1800s, which for the most part has made things a lot easier for me. I've got a pretty good idea of what happened to everyone on that side aside from Martin and, to a lesser extent, his parents (but that's normal for pre-Famine records).

That's great Maddys52    You found him ( the 1940 man)!

I'd say he was more likely boarding AT the the 16 Percival address, which is not necessarily saying the address is a Boarding House per se.  Sounds like he was very much involved with the Church, so it could have been an address associated with the Rozelle Church or a member of the Rozelle congregation.

Hi Landlady, man, may have found amongst his belongings, his family address in Ireland to send watch to but had not known or found his parents names for the death  cert?

Cheers
AMBLY

That's definitely a possibility! The reason why I listed so many names for their father is because John and Mary tend to use Thomas and Timothy respectively for him, but the newspaper articles of his death use Thomas or Thadeus.

I'll ask my grandma if she knew whether he was involved with the Church or not - I wouldn't be surprised if he was, especially as an unmarried and childless man. Regardless of whether he died in 1937 or 1940, she would've only been a young child, although her story about what happened when he died makes me think 1940 is the more likely one. It sounded a lot like she was talking about something she personally remembered, but I'll double-check with her.

And thank you to everyone so far! I've been really struggling with the lack of census records to consult, so this has been very helpful. I've ordered the death certificate of the Martin who died in 1940 to have a better look - as I understand, Australian death certificates usually include how long someone had lived in Australia for?

I also forgot to mention that John named one of his sons after Martin in 1905, which makes me wonder if that's when he visited instead. Also - looks like there were Garveys in Annaholty, so the connection to Rev. Garvey is very possible.

Welcome to RootsChat!

I’m afraid there are no inquest reports or witness depositions for the Central Middlesex district for this date. The Coroners’ Registers in series A are simply administrative listings of the cases heard, and they normally contain no details beyond what is on the death certificate.

The newspapers are the best chance of finding something. You might try asking Camden Local Studies Library if there is anything in, for example, the St Pancras Guardian, as that paper is one of the very many local London newspapers that is not online.

https://www.camden.gov.uk/about-the-local-studies-archives-centre

Oh, thanks for the clarification! I had guessed it was unlikely the registers would have any more info, but it certainly sounds like you're right - especially since the registrar did his best to cram as many details into the death cert as possible.

And I'll definitely ask the Local Studies department - I don't really have the option to travel to London for genealogical research any time soon, but it didn't occur to me that they might be able to help me out. And if not, I can always put that on my list the next time I travel to London not on business.