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Messages - celtickids

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Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: Divorced but buried together?? Alfred Wright
« on: Tuesday 29 August 23 17:07 BST (UK)  »
Hi
Back again on this! Is anyone able to help me with any details on the two names on the marriage entry please? (Wright/Cavanagh).Were they both on originally or was this a modification after? I still have some doubts whether I'm in the right direction.
Re the Hardy Milton link, I found an Alfred Hardy Milton Wright on Manchester rates books for 1921 and 1926 and an Alfred Harvey Milton Wright for 1931 and 1936. I can't view the images but at least I've found the name.
The other thing still puzzling me is the other dependent child. Alice Hilda Cavanagh would be 13 in 1921. Who could the 12 year old one be and where were they?!
I'm going down the Cavanagh road regardless and I found on mlfhs some of the baptism records.
Florentia M Kavanagh baptised in 1894 at Saint Mary's, Failsworth. Child of Annae Grundy and Alfredi Kavanagh
Josephus Cuthbertus Cavanagh baptised in 1896 at Saint Mary's, Failsworth. Mother: Annae Grundy.
Anna Mildred Cavanagh baptised in 1905 at Our Lady Mount Carmel, Blackley. Child of Anna Grundy and Alfredi Cavanagh. Godmother: Alicia Grundy.
I couldn't find the baptisms of Alfred Cecil from 1903 or Alice Hilda in 1908. Perhaps not transcribed yet.
Given that I'm searching forwards rather than backwards (hoping that a living relative can shed more light on the story in the newspaper), I've since found these possible leads.
1) Alfred Cecil Cavanagh married Beryl Winefred Davis in October 1946 at Saint Alphonsus, Old Trafford. I think it's him because there is a reference to Stockport (ties into Annie Cavanagh and Alice Grundy living there afterwards per 1939 register and probate/news article mentioned this too) but there's quite an age gap, he would have been 43 and his bride 24. Seems they had at least one child: Rita Mary Cavanagh, born SepQ 1947. She married James Albert Atkinson in SepQ 1971, Manchester Register Office. I can't find any children for them. Think she might have passed away in 2005 in Yorkshire
2) Alice Hilda Cavanagh married Joseph Ernest Smith in 1937? She passed away in 1984? probate mentioned Bramhall, Stockport. Potential children: Alan E Smith SepQ 1940; William Smith DecQ 1944; Kathleen Mary Smith JunQ1946; John Francis Smith SepQ 1947. Latter two births at Stockport.
3) Anna Mildred Cavanagh married John Howell in 1933 at Chorlton upon Medlock? Potential children: John Howell DecQ 1936; Peter Francis Howell JunQ 1940; David Edward Howell SepQ 1945. Latter two births at Stockport.
Perhaps all the family regrouped in Stockport during/after WW2.
I'm hoping that someone from the Cavanagh/Howell, Cavanagh/Smith or Cavanagh/Atkinson branches might read this and have the information about this story. As I said, I feel that there's some ancestral loose ends to be tied up...
Thanks everyone!

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Hi. History repeats itself, for sure, and impacts future generations and psychogenealogy includes scientific explanations eg involving DNA to support. There are even therapies based on this premise, such as transgenerational therapy.

This is right up my street at the moment. I started my family tree research due to an intuition about certain family events and have discovered some similarities between generations (that I can't detail for confidentiality reasons). A Rootschat member (thanks again Ladyhawk) helped me discover a newspaper article involving a potential relative and I have a hunch that there was an element of dispute/fraud involved even though it isn't mentioned.

Certain theories talk of ancestral karma and that one person in the family is designated, even unbeknown to them, as being the one to discover the secrets and clear up the wounds. Again I have the feeling that this has fallen on me! So, if anyone knows anything more on this unusual story about Alfred Cavanagh (aka Alfred Hardy Milton and maybe Alfred Wright) would appreciate any help to break unhealthy cycles. To sum up, a divorced man was found dead in 1936 through starvation but had £7k of assets that went to his ex-wife as he died intestate.

Link to original post https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=871656.27



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Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: Divorced but buried together?? Alfred Wright
« on: Thursday 06 April 23 19:53 BST (UK)  »
Hi. Lots of searching and more questions than responses since your last comments (thanks for those). To be honest, poor Alfred's circumstances have left me unsettled - there's something unusual about this whole story. I'd like to be able to read the full coroner's report but I gather these aren't publicly available. I'm throwing these ponderings down only in case anyone fancies giving their thoughts.

1) When looking again at the probate extract for Alfred Cavanagh/Alfred Hardy Milton, the entry just below ie the same year caught my eye.
John Wright Cavanagh. 45 Faulkner Street Manchester. Died 12 July 1918 at Prestwich Manchester. Administration York 8 April 1937 to Annie Cavanagh, widow and Alfred Cecil Cavanagh, rent collector. Effects £200.
This was seemingly Alfred Cavanagh's father, born and baptised in 1846 who died in Sep quarter 1918, aged 72. Probate 18 years after death, seems an unusually long time? Unless they had to do this to be able to process Alfred's.

2) Was surprised that Alfred (Wright), as a bookkeeper and having a reasonable estate and dependent children, was reported as being intestate. I would've thought he would be likely to have a will. And the credit and securities "entrusted to a woman". Annie Wright/Pearson?

3) The burial record, you mentioned occupation salesman. This ties in with commercial clerk from the census for Alfred Cavanagh but not for Alfred Wright, bookkeeper?

4) administration for both Cavanagh probate was in York whereas both deaths were in Manchester. One newspaper mentioned Annie Cavanagh being in Stockport. John Wright Cavanagh's marriage was in Manchester in 1867 per freebmd but there is also one in Huddersfield in 1884. A second marriage perhaps. Or, as I've come to realise, through reading other threads on here, practices such as wrong census info, false/falsified records, stolen documents, sharing documents etc. exist.

5) Finally, I'm striking a blank on the Hardy Milton element. There was a marriage in 1867 at St John, Manchester between Mary Milton and Thomas Hardy. Link, irrelevant or red herring?! I've still got a lot of work ahead 🕵️ Have a good long weekend!

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Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: Divorced but buried together?? Alfred Wright
« on: Friday 31 March 23 18:19 BST (UK)  »
Hi
You're all quicker than me (not logged on permanently) so apologies if response out of order as I draft offline.
Thanks everyone for your support first and foremost.
Constance was a relative of mine. I have so little info to go on because there are limited family stories and recollections. I know every family has their skeletons in the closet and family secrets but I understand there might have been a rift involved when she married (Protestant-Catholic). William's response concurs with my difficulties in corroborating info - her husband was William but no idea why the use of David or both names unless it was to stay incognito. Personally, I don't care if my family were Christian, atheists, members of Hare Krishna or if there's illegitimate kids all over the show 😉 but it's frustrating not knowing a bit more history. I'm more or less OK with Constance's lineage going forward. It's going backwards I'm interested in, namely her parents (presumably Alfred Wright and Annie Wright/Pearson) and grandparents (perhaps Milton somewhere given her second name?) and if there were other siblings or step-siblings. This probably sounds loopy but I sometimes wonder if I'm struggling with my search because the ancestors want the past kept there but I have this uncanny feeling that I have to pursue this!
Can I be sure of the Garside link do you think? Pearson seems to be heavily present in Yorkshire and I did wonder if there were perhaps ties there.
Wow! Amazing work and story, Ladyhawk, albeit sad. Accountant's clerk makes total sense as on Constance's 'potential' birth certificate it had Alfred Wright's profession as bookkeeper. It's the end of the week and my grey cells are tiring so I'll have to re-read and look into the Cavanagh bit. It seems he used both the surname Wright and Cavanagh then if I understand well. Funny, I mentioned I thought there might be a Yorkshire link but turns out it's probably from him.
You've certainly all given me some huge breakthroughs. So appreciated!! The newspaper articles definitely confirm the Alfred, Annie & Constance, Cooper St Gorton info. Now I can hopefully find some more on Milton, Garside, Cavanagh etc.

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Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: Divorced but buried together?? Alfred Wright
« on: Friday 31 March 23 12:50 BST (UK)  »
Hi everyone. Thanks for all the responses. I'm kicking myself now for not having got a printout of the 1921 census info at the time  - a history volunteer was helping me look at records (I don't even know which site. Beginner's mistake, I now know to note sources!) and I wrote info down. It was an image not a transcript. Yes, I got to "49 year Alfred" through looking for Pearson/Wright on the site. The two children, 12 and 13, were just crosses in a row of ages for dependent children. Constance was listed separately as 8 years old. I recall that it said "both parents still alive" somewhere on the form. I remember asking about this because it seemed obvious that Constance's parents, if they were indeed Alfred and Annie, were both still alive. The volunteer explained this was normal - the following from ukcensusonline confirms "For those under 15 the census recorded whether both parents were alive or if either or both parents had died."
Alfred was 49 and divorced. Didn't note occupation (kicking myself again!!). Annie was showing as Annie Wright, otherwise Pearson, single, boarder, 45 years old. I had noted her occupation which is "own account". I was doubting if this was the correct Wright/Pearson as Annie was single on the census. Maybe Constance was their daughter and they just weren't married?  I did also wonder about adoption, especially as Annie would have been 37 at Constance's birth, but there again before the days of contraception... I have seen a potential birth certificate for Constance Milton. I say potential because I noted down 2 unusual aspects on it: the registration was July 1913 - ties in to September quarter GRO but birth was in April ie a late registration. Also the date on the bottom where the registrar signs off was 1927. Might be nothing but seemed strange.
In any case, I'm still interested in finding more on Alfred and Annie (and the two dependents).
LizzieL: may I ask what the interesting footnote is please?
Heywood: Are you able to put a pdf of the 1911 census extract please or a transcript? The link takes me to a homepage. Maybe a sign-up is required.
Thanks again everyone👍

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Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: Divorced but buried together?? Alfred Wright
« on: Thursday 30 March 23 16:21 BST (UK)  »
Hi carolew. Correct - I can bin the Brookson trail I started down.
So all I have on the Alfred Wright I'm looking into is he's aged 49 on the 1921 census, living Cooper Street, Gorton, divorced with 2 dependents aged 12 & 13. If only it weren't such a common name!

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Lancashire Lookup Requests / Re: Divorced but buried together?? Alfred Wright
« on: Thursday 30 March 23 14:39 BST (UK)  »
Thanks everyone! Going through in order.
Carolew: I have since found an Alfred, born on 7 Feb 1899, child of Marion Reynolds Brookson so out of marriage, baptised 23 Feb 1899 St Thomas Pendleton (am putting the details even though it's not my family in the end in case of use to others in the future)
Nannyjan: great, this confirms that Alfred & Marion were still together then. Brunswick Street, Gorton was the address on the 1911 census. Unfortunately this means I'm back to square one (or minus one!) with potentially "my" Alfred Wright.
Millmoor: thanks for the 1939 tip. I maybe should have mentioned, the "49 year old Alfred" was living at Cooper Street, Gorton. I had thought that after his divorce, he had just moved in Gorton. Maybe he wasn't even from the area in the end. So I need to find out where he was born, who his marriage was to and who the 12 and 13 year dependents were (there were no names on the 1921 census). Not much to go on..
Another avenue found on Lancashire opc Baptism: 25 Dec 1872 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England

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Lancashire Lookup Requests / Divorced but buried together?? Alfred Wright
« on: Thursday 30 March 23 12:13 BST (UK)  »
Hi. Can anyone please help? I'm looking at a family in Gorton, Manchester. Alfred Wright and Marion Brookson. Alfred born 1872 in Pendleton. Marion Guest Brookson born in 1877 in Farnworth, Manchester. Father: William Guest Brookson and mother Elvina. Marion was living with her aunt Ann Reynolds, widow, and Ann's family per the 1881 census. Alfred and Marion got married in 1900. Living with their two sons, Alfred Wright aged 12 and George William Wright aged 3 per the 1911 census. Alfred worked in the railways.

In the 1921 census, there's a 49 year old Alfred Wright living in Gorton but he was showing as divorced, having been married for 13 years. He was shown as having two dependent children aged 12 and 13 (the 13 year old could be George William but then who is the 12 year old?). This could tie in with the marriage dates above but I then saw an entry for Gorton cemetery, showing an Alfred and Marion Wright buried together. Presuming that this is the same couple, it would surprise me that divorced spouses would be buried together! So the Alfred Wright on the 1921 census that I'm researching might not be the same one.

Can anyone please help me find out more on the divorced 49 year old Alfred? I'm hitting a blank. Thanks.

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Lancashire / Re: Pearsons Pendleton Salford
« on: Tuesday 21 March 23 19:41 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks Heywood (sorry for the delay in responding) for your insights. I must have gone down the wrong road because you mention Ann Pearson had died as an infant whereas the one I'm possibly interested in was aged 45 on the 1921 census. Probably a novice's mistake of forgetting that not all records have been transcribed!

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