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Messages - Andy J2022

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1
The Common Room / Re: Merchant Navy Fatalities Death Certificates
« on: Today at 08:44 »
Kevin,
You should check the overseas deaths collection on FindMyPast if you can, because it reflects a different section of the GRO indexes which, as far as I am aware, do not form part of the searchable GRO website.
See this guidance note from the GRO: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/CG6_1.pdf

Overseas death registrations are also available on microfiche in the libraries around the UK listed below and in LDS Family History Centres.

   Tthe Library of Birmingham
    Bridgend Local and Family History Centre
    the City of Westminster Archives Centre
    Manchester Central Library
    Newcastle City Library
    Plymouth Central Library
    The British Library (you’ll need to register first)


2
The Common Room / Re: Merchant Navy Fatalities Death Certificates
« on: Yesterday at 21:19 »
If he was aboard a UK registered ship I would have expected his death to be registered at the GRO. How have you checked the GRO records? If you used an intermediate site like Ancestry or FindMyPast you need to be aware that some overseas deaths are recorded in a different series of records, and you may need to check them specifically.
For example on FindMyPast look in the collection entitled  British Armed Forces and Overseas Deaths and Burials.
On Ancestry check the collection UK, World War I and World War II Shipping and Seamen Rolls of Honour, 1914-1945 - this won't give you the reference for the GRO registration but it will confirm that his death was acknowledged by the British authorities and thus there will be a GRO death registration, albeit maybe a post dated supplementary entry.

https://roll-of-honour.com/Databases/MercantileMarineCasualtiesWW1/index.html

Details of the deaths of over 15,500 merchant seafarers due to enemy action in the First World War can be found on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) website: cwgc.org

This from the National Marotime Museum: "The CWGC database does not cover all deaths on British-registered vessels, so it may be necessary to consult official log books (see above) and other documents submitted to the Registry of Shipping and Seamen. The NMM holds the following records of deaths extracted from log books of British-registered vessels:

    Monthly Returns of Deaths of Seamen (GR160 forms) 1916-1989 numbered with the prefix RSS/A. These provide brief details of the cause of death and the relevant vessel. They mainly record deaths resulting from marine causes or accidents in ports, but deaths resulting from enemy attacks on fishing boats and other small vessels are sometimes included.
    Returns of Births and Deaths (B&D1 forms) 1914-1919 numbered with the prefix RSS/B. These records are arranged by month and then alphabetically by the vessel name. They provide more detailed information on the circumstances and sometimes include reports from medical staff, police, etc. There are also B&D1 forms recording births and deaths among passengers on merchant vessels 1914-1919 numbered with the prefix RSS/C.

Registers of births, marriages and deaths of seamen and passengers (including foreign nationals) maintained by the Registry of Shipping and Seamen are in the BT 334 series at TNA. For the period 1910-1918 there are also registers recording births and deaths reported to one of the national Registrars General. The TNA research guide on births, deaths and marriages at sea (Births, marriages and deaths at sea or abroad) provides guidance on the relevant records at Kew and links to resources on the Findmypast website."

3
Armed Forces / Re: Royal Horse Artillery in the 1880s.
« on: Yesterday at 20:00 »
As you seem to have already discovered, his service record doesn't appear to have survived. This was quite common for soldiers who didn't serve for long enough to qualify for a pension. The Army had no reason to retain their records once they had been discharged as fit.

I have been unable to find out a great deal about F Battery, B Brigade RHA during the time you are interested in.. The first thing to say is that it has no connection to today's F (Sphinx) Parachute Battery RHA.  That battery traces its roots back to A Battery B Brigade.

What I can tell you is that B Brigade was formed in India on 13 April 1864 out of the old 1st Brigade RHA. Its original composition only consisted of batteries A - E. F Battery was in C Brigade, with its antecedents as 1st Troop, 3rd Brigade Bengal Horse Artillery first raised at Sialkot, part of the Armies of the East India Company. There was a further reorganisation of the RHA on 14 April 1877, during which F Battery transferred to B Brigade. F Battery does not appear to have been involved in the Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-1880 and probably returned to the UK in about 1881 or early 82 as they are located at Aldershot by August 1882.The battery remains in Aldershot until 1885 when it moved to Canterbury, and around the time that Joseph is being discharged in December 1886, the Battery was located at Abbassiya in Egypt (see press cuttings below).

The reason that Robert was discharged was, as you say, because he lied about his age when he enlisted on 7 May 1885 (he would have been aged 15 at the time). Perhaps he joined at the same time as his brother Joseph who would have been around 18 or 19. But in any case, unless he also lied about his age Joseph wouldn't have been able to join until he was 18 since the Royal Horse Artillery didn't recruit boy soldiers at that stage. That means that his discharge in December 1886, shortly after his brother Robert was discharged in September, is distinctly odd. He could only have served for perhaps at most two years, which is considerably shorter than any engagement at the time. So either he too lied about his age and was discharged, or he was found unfit for further service, or possibly, he bought himself out. The cost of buying himself out would have been around £10- an enormous sum in those days. I don't think he will have seen any active service and I suspect he didn't leave the UK during his brief career in the Army.

4
Technical Help / Re: "Database Error" message
« on: Yesterday at 13:32 »
See this thread: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=897101.msg7718895

5
World War One / Re: Military Service, Cecil Thomas. 2/4thBatllion Duke of Cornwalls light infantry.
« on: Yesterday at 13:04 »
Martin you are right. However Neale1961 misquoted the service record. What it actually said was 1 yr and 303 days, which is correct.

6
World War One / Re: Military Service, Cecil Thomas. 2/4thBatllion Duke of Cornwalls light infantry.
« on: Yesterday at 12:11 »
I'm not sure it is of any relevance to Cecil Thomas's service as he won't have joined up pre-war, but the 4th Battalion was based in the following locations in Cornwall, prior to the start of the war:

    A Company at Penzance
    B Company at Camborne
    C Company at Falmouth
    D Company at Helston
    E Company at Truro
    F Company at Hayle
    G Company at Redruth
    H Company at St. Just (detachment at Pendeen)

7
World War One / Re: Military Service, Cecil Thomas. 2/4thBatllion Duke of Cornwalls light infantry.
« on: Yesterday at 12:05 »
Here's what the Long, Long Trail website has to say about their deployment to India:
"4th Battalion
Formed at Truro in September 1914 as a home service (“second line”) unit. Became part of 2nd Devon and Cornwall Brigade, 2nd (Wessex) Division.
12 December 1914 : sailed for India and remained there throughout the war. Arrived at Karachi on 9 January 1915. Came under orders of 1st Quetta Brigade in 4th (Quetta) Division. Moved in October 1915 to Multan Brigade in 3rd (Lahore) Divisional Area. In March 1916, transferred to Ferozepore Brigade in same Area. Moved with brigade (now renamed 44th Brigade) to 16th (Indian) Division in February 1917. Moved in March 1917 to Dehra Dun Brigade in 7th (Meerut) Divisional Area and transferred to Delhi Brigade in same Area in March 1918."

8
World War Two / Re: Help with regiment and possible date of photo
« on: Friday 06 March 26 00:00 GMT (UK)  »
If the man on the horse is Reginald Charles John Smart, then it seems likely the photograph may date back to his time with the 3rd Hussars in the period June 1897 - May 1898. However from other photographs (eg the one in the link below)  of 3rd Hussars soldiers on horseback from around that time  it would appear that they wore a white lanyard on the left should, and that their horse's tack included a white martingale, neither of which appear in the photo. I'm not sure what we should conclude from this.
https://www.alamy.com/the-3rd-the-kings-own-hussars-during-the-first-world-war-image621170575.html

9
World War One / Re: Military Service, Cecil Thomas. 2/4thBatllion Duke of Cornwalls light infantry.
« on: Thursday 05 March 26 23:46 GMT (UK)  »
Welcome to RootsChat. You are in luck!

Part of his service record has survived. He enlisted in the 4th DCLI on 5 Sept 1914, and was discharged on 28 August 1917 suffering from debility and defective vision. There are several pages of medical reports which are extremely difficult to read, but apparently his eyesight was damaged in an accident in 1912. Another part of the report seems to mention that he went to India but returned on leave in 1916 - hence he would have been able to marry in Redruth -  but I can't make out the remainder of the narrative.

He was an accountant in civilian life and he was promoted to Sergeant on 11 September 1914, then further promoted to the acting rank of Colour Sergeant and employed as a company quartermaster sergeant (CQMS) on 9 December 1914, 3 days before going to India. He returned from India on 11 October 1916.

His record is on FindMyPast. His first regimental number was 2154, and in early 1917 this was changed to 200431 in line with the policy of renumbering Territorial Force soldiers. He appears to have only been awarded the British War Medal. He received a pension pay out but his wife did not qualify for extra support as they married after he had been removed from duty. 1 shilling and sixpence was allowed for his child.

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