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Messages - If the shoe fits

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1
Armed Forces / Re: Army Pensioner
« on: Wednesday 29 June 22 04:24 BST (UK)  »
Hi
you are welcome.
I reread your initial post and realised I made a mistake too, I have a brain injury so can't keep much information in my brain.

With the one off payment, if we consider the age our ancestors lived to in the UK, they were young when they passed, the one off payment may have been taken to give to his daughter, because in his demise, they would receive nothing.  Most took the opportunity for support - one off payment, mine moved to a new country because their lives were so difficult back then. 

There are some incredible books online for the 41st, with specific year ranges, you may find some information about him in one of the books too xx

2
Hi
A FEW mysteries!!

my great great grandparents were John Kelly and Anna Fox. They arrived in Australia in January 1862 on the Lincelles to Western Australia.  John was known as John 'Pale' Kelly???
I have attached a photo of John and Anna but it is poor quality and when they are older, but may help someone recognise something.


John Kelly was born c 1835 apparently baptised in Templepatrick Moyvore Westmeath.
I cannot find any record.  I have calculated his birth month to be around September - his Attestation papers for the Crimea War state he was 18 6/12months so calculating the date means he was born around September 1835 (depending on the actual birth date. they were signed in Mullingar 1854

His parents are Michael Kelly - apparently from Ardagh - no age, date or record yet.
Family history passed John's mums name down as Catherine Mahon. No record
Catherine I believe IS mums name, but the surname I believe is WRONG, I don't believe it is Mahon because with the hundreds of descendants, noone can find a record of her, so I am wondering IF her name was similar sounding.  Open to suggestions.  No more info on her.

Michael and Catherine Kelly had 2 children in Ireland - John c1835 and Aliese (Alice/Anna???) maybe 1836/1838.  Apparently Aliese was baptised in Forgney Longford.  I don't know what happened to her but rumour is she married and moved to Canada (on a social media genealogy group I found descendants)

That is IT, no more info, but.... no more babies, so I believe Michael was 'gone' before 1840.  I HAVE found a Michael that I believe could be him in Australia, he remarried and had more children. So not naive in thinking he moved on.   IF other peoples research is correct, it MAY be Michael William Kelly born 6 June 1806 Longford BUT I am not convinced because I believe THIS Michael was transported to Australia BEFORE John's birth (or conception), so Aliese wouldn't exist either.

There are almost NO DEFINITES on records except John Kelly's Crimea War paperwork.  He signed the paperwork at Mullingar, returned injured and his first pension district was Athlone.  So we are hanging around Longford.  This was 1856.

In the newspaper clipping of Johns death, it states he was  a man from Longford which does tie in with what I know so far.

So looking for John's baptism, and his parents please.

FOX

He married Anna Fox - I can't find any record of her whatsoever, the family passed down the believe Bernard and Rose were her parents, I am not convinced yet. 

Anna Fox married John c1857 and possibly in Longford.  They had 2 sons before moving to Western Australia. John was pensioned from the Crimea War and arrived on the Lincelles January 1862  - pension, job and land allotment.
Frances Kelly (male)  15 Apr 1858 possibly Longford
John Kelly 14 Jan 1860 Longford

Their children – followed naming patterns.

Francis – Not sure – John’s grandfather or Annas dad?
John – after John
Anna Maria – after Anna.  Anna Maria – COULD Anna be Maria/Maryanna?
Alicia – Johns sister?
Michael – Johns dad
Catherine - Johns Mum
Esther – Not sure?



FOX
Can’t find the Fox family.
John and Anna’s first 2 sons were born in Longford. I feel confident that is where Anna is from. But don’t know where Johns mum and sister are.

Major Barry Fox COULD be a possibility but only learnt his name yesterday.  Social media hasn’t helped much, NO responses to any Fox question – guessing they were not popular – political or inhumane. I want to know my ancestors - the good and the bad, it is part of history and family history.

Having the belief Anna's father was Bernard - there was a bernard in Westmeath but would have been the same age as her so impossible to be her father.  Could still be related.  But could it be Barry (maybe short for Bernard – Major Barry Fox)

Sorry for the BOOK

Basically if ANYONE can please help find JOhn's birth/baptism (open to John being a different version of John like Owen Joannum etc
his parents - Michael and Catherine ARE names of their children too, so the names continued in our family as tradition.
his wife
her family
and a definite location I will be forever grateful, I have been researching years and finding nothing - I need a set of fresh eyes and someone elses perspective to help me pass this roadblock.


FAMILY GOSSIP
Rumour was passed down - through ALL of John's children and grandchildren that John sent a telegram to Ned Kelly's family when he was Hanged.

Michael (John's dad), we were told he was arrested around 1840 and transported to Australia (Tasmania) for stealing an animal.  We were told he was some type of merchant with ties to Dublin - we dismissed this BECAUSE of the distance between Longford and Dublin, it seemed too far in the 1800s.  We wondered if Michael lived in Dublin and sent money to his wife Catherine and the children, but in 1840ish he was arrested and transported (more likely scenario).
We were told the Kellys owned  the pub next to the Courthouse - we believe this could be in Dublin - Michael may not have owned the pub but it in the Kelly family, he worked there. 

Any help appreciated and happy to support others with research too.


Thank you all xxxxx

Adeline




3
Westmeath / Re: Catherine Brennan, emigrated to Australia on the Kapunda 1875
« on: Tuesday 28 June 22 02:18 BST (UK)  »
Also, the Kapunda was HUGE news, check Trove for newspapers - the arrival would have been a big deal, the standout compared to other ships arriving at the same time.  I know I have read Kapunda on Trove because thats how I found the story.  But there may be websites or blogs JUST for the Kapunda, from other descendants who had ancestors arrive here on the ship.

Look for the Surgeons Log, the shipping list/log.   It has a tonne of informamation usually.  It can even have something as minor as the age being 19 6/12 months, so you can work out exactly which MONTH they were born in a specific year.

4
Westmeath / Re: Catherine Brennan, emigrated to Australia on the Kapunda 1875
« on: Tuesday 28 June 22 02:15 BST (UK)  »
Hi Geoff
Fellow Aussie here, tracing my own family.

May I suggest looking at the shipping records.  I know about the Kapunda, I am glad your family arrived here safely.  With shipping records, we have the Australian ones, BUT.... remember that Australia was not  a Country until 1901, so some records ARE on the national archives here but there are records held by the Colonial Secretrary - that means ALL paperwork for every area of Australia are held by NSW too. 

BUT... I would use the shipping records from the UK - England... because they coordinated the shipping, even for ships leaving Dublin.  There are always two shipping records - outgoing and incoming.  The outgoing shipping records seem to be more reliable - they are obviously familiar with the geographical locations in Ireland so have recorded more accurate data.  That would be my first goto because you could be given exact locations to start your search

5
Armed Forces / Re: Army Pensioner
« on: Tuesday 28 June 22 02:04 BST (UK)  »
This may not apply to this specific story but good to know for anyone researching

For pensioners from the army in the late 1700s and the 1800s, the UK offered pensioners a 'deal', they would receive their pension as an allotment of land in another country like Australia, so they stopped receiving the formal pension and received wages - they needed to work as prison warders, police officers, wardens etc for 7 years which gave them a wage, with their formal pension being their land allotment. My gg grandfather and many of his  family who served in the Crimea War came to  Australia that way.

Pensioned out may be he was paid in another form - land etc

I looked up pensions in the UK armed services, Dd means they were discharged and their pension was paid out - that army pensions CAN be paid as lump sum payments for seriously ill pensioners.   I imagine an amputee, or other health conditions would be part of that.  It does not mean he is dead.  If you cant find him in the UK, look at shipping records as an option.  If you can't find his passing, look in other countries, he may have moved to work then send money home for the family. 

If his daughters death certificate doesn't have his?? name on it, this could explain it, maybe he left and aunty was grumpy about it.


6
Armed Forces / Re: 41st foot. Stationed in Ireland 1800's
« on: Monday 27 June 22 14:22 BST (UK)  »
Hi
My gg grandfather was in the 41st Welch Regiment of Foot, which was renamed the 41st Welsh Regiment of Foot and THEN renamed with different numbers.

I believe he was part of the FIRST Anglo Sikh War between the British Empire and Sikh empire, which explains why he was in Madras and returned to Dublin in 1843.

Mullingar is where my gg grandfather signed his attestation papers for the Crimea war, Is that possibly near Athlone Barracks?

I literally have a brain injury so hope I understand what you are asking.  My advice is to look at the 41st Welch Regiment of Foot, which I think changes names to something like the 87th, but you will be able to follow where they where and which battles they were involved in.  For him to NOT go to the Crimea War in 1854, means he could have been injured in the First Sikh War and pensioned, so there may be a mention of a pension district.   

Stations of the British Army. Where 2 places are mentioned, 2nd is the regiment's depot.
41st. Regiment
31st January 1846 Dublin (Returned from Madras, July 1843)
1st January 1847 (?not sure of year) Mullingar
28th July 1847 Mullingar
1st May 1850 Cork
1st April 1852 Corfu - Boyle (Boyle is in County Roscommon)

I would look at the archives online in the UK, NOT in Ireland, the services fought under the UK banner, so the records are held in England too, they are online. 

Otherwise, ask and I will see if I can help you further.  My gg grandfather served in Crimea and was pensioned by 22 years old.  So they get assigned back to a pension district because they have to go to teh barracks to receive their pension every 6 months?

Hope that helps a bit xx



7
Lancashire / Re: Mary Green born abt 1848 Chorlton on Medlock
« on: Wednesday 08 June 22 10:58 BST (UK)  »
Oh phew, I was stressing  I may upset someone.

I can't find my ggg grandparents definite details, so really trying to think out of the box, but using facts from history in the area.

We KNOW the industrial revolution and poverty and slums were across the UK. BUT the families in Ireland were suffering the most. 

SO, if you are in the Kelly family (me), I may have 20 people - uncles, cousins, dad, etc that can leave Ireland and work, some could have gone to Scotland, some to England.  BUT the ones who went to England, if Mike was in Manchester, I wonder if more of his family went further into England all the way to Liverpool depending on their skills. 

So the families of Longford, Roscommon, Strokestown are ALL in the same are, imagine if 2 of my Kellys were teens, they went with a family of Greens who have the parents and tiny kids, they had the community support because they knew each other but they also built a relay network too - the family in Liverpool give the money to the cousin in wherever until the money reaches Manchester and then goes to Ireland. 

Families were desperate - they were starving and their babies were dying from hunger.  But our ancestors were clever, with or without formal schooling and literacy, we had incredible ancestors who HAD to be problem solvers - their lives depended on it.  We look at what they achieved when they lived abroad.  I noticed random families stuck with my Kelly ancestors when they came to AUstralia, but now I think it was their culture to support each other, they had to.  Imagine being in a new country trying to build a house, with 8 children, farm for food etc. NO one person could do that, I feel the families would have supported each others farms too, especially if the wife is having a few days off to have a baby :)  What if someone was sick?  Work had to be done, so they helped each other.

By having the families in Roscommon or wherever, there were lots of families, I wonder if they mixed up the families to spread the risk for wages, some strong young men go to the coal mines in England, but some of the older (haha 40) and people with young children go to Manchester.  So some of the Greens, the Kellys etc went mining, some of the Greens and Kellys went to Manchester. They were ALL the same community and came down to a core of a few families - even if its ten families, its still a small amount of families.

BUT.... when we mix the families, we may need to use an open mind to know that the 5 Green family members on the census may NOT be husband, wife etc, it could be brother, sister, cousin, sister in law etc. It means we need to scrutinise the census to find the connections. There would definitely be families who are husband, wife and children but not all of them, there could be an extra sister or brother of the family head on the census.   It would have been a way to spend time as a family and community, keep up with whats happening in the families and home in  Ireland and around England but also giving their families the best opportunity to survive.  Some jobs would have received higher wages, but come with more danger.  So basically spreading the risk and putting the stronger people in jobs where they could earn more.  Maybe creating a relay line of workers so getting the money from the south of England to Ireland was NOT the hours of travel, but simply visiting the next town, then that person took the money to the next village, so no real down time from work.


8
Lancashire / Re: Mary Green born abt 1848 Chorlton on Medlock
« on: Wednesday 08 June 22 04:58 BST (UK)  »
I honestly hope I don't offend, I know we are ALL searching for our family BUT I MAY have stumbled on something.  I found the names like Kelly, Mahon, Green on paperwork for Strokestown - Roscommon area. It was awful. One landowner sent his whole estates workers to canada because it was cheaper than paying them, he couldnt afford it. 

I KNOW my ggg Grandfather was Michael Kelly, born in Athlone c1806.  Married Catherine Mahon, had my gg grandfather John in 1836.  BUT... Michael disappears around 1840.  John has  a sister born c1838. 

I thinkn i have found Michael on paperwork in Strokestown (I KNEW he was born in Athlone, which depending on where you look is Roscommon or Westmeath).  I thought Michael was a convict and shipped off to Australia, still a possiblity.

BUT Strokestown was full of Irish farmers and labourers just trying to earn enough to feed their family and we all know about the famine.   One homeowner shipped his whole labour force to Canada?? because it was cheaper than paying them to stay. Lots of Irish were leaving by the late 1830s because there was not enough food.

So back to my Michael Kelly - he is IN Strokestown/Athlone/Roscommon and in Westmeath his son John is baptised in 1836.  Next baby 1828 and then Michael disappears around 1840 - maybe in Manchester? maybe a convict?

I know there were a lot of Irish who moved to England just so they could survive, even though they lived in slums in England, apparently it was better than living in Ireland, it would have been horrendous. 

But that also means that families that knew each other in Ireland, would probably stick together in England, share a house etc,They lived in overcrowded houses in slums, but they would have looked after each other because they are family or friends from the same area of Ireland. I know they did what they did to survive, I know that means I have family who are convicts and transported, but the names from Strokestown like Kelly, Green, Mahon etc are the same names on some of the census documents in Manchester, maybe the Manchester families are not just husband and wife, but cousins and in laws etc so they could stick together?  Maybe thats why I am getting confused.

Who knows? 

9
Lancashire / Re: Mary Green born abt 1848 Chorlton on Medlock
« on: Monday 06 June 22 12:15 BST (UK)  »
Hi, really hoping I have stumbled on my family.....

Catherine Mahon was mentioned as living with Michael Kelly and his family on one of the comments in this thread.  I will look deeper because I am the great, great, great grandaughter of Michael Kelly who married Catherine Mahon, then they had a son John in 1835.  But I will have to look at the census docs that you have posted. 

Its realy weird that we know John Kelly and his father being MIchael Kelly but not much else.  John Kelly married Anna Fox in 1857, they moved to Australia in 1861.  I believe Michael Kelly was already in Australia as a convict.  But the locations always seem to be in question.  Apparentely John was baptised in Westmeath, but Michael was born in Athlone, lived in Longford, with mention of Ardagh Moydow, Moyvore, Roscommon, Mullingar and randomly Dublin.  They were all RC accoding to the records I have found (baptisms, army docs). 

Wondering if we are all in the same mixed up family tree.  I have Greens in mine too.
 

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