Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - SplanK

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 7
1
The Common Room / Re: Ancestry family trees full of lazy errors
« on: Sunday 05 January 25 12:31 GMT (UK)  »
I long gave up trying to help others where tress are wildly incorrect.  I often find that these tree's are people just following hints and not reading much into censuses and either never respond or never update.

There was one tree with a DNA match to my wife where they made the wrong turn at their great grandparents resulting in Thrulines being completely wrong and impossible!  That was very annoying as it was several generations deep before we clocked that we could not replicate their information as we worked our way down!  Tried to help unpick it with them but they just threw up walls because they could not possibly be wrong!

I just concentrate on my own tree and use others as a guide and help in other ways where I can (IE I contribute a lot of photos and transcriptions on find a grave, or upload details from BMD certificates onto FreeBMD as postems's). 

My tree is hidden.  I have been in 2 minds over the years if I should leave it closed, or if I should open it up to aid collaboration.... but dare say most will just 'copy/paste' stuff into their own tree without much thought leading to new problems.  My other thought was to export the tree and upload it as a tree without the evidence/documentation, but not sure if that would be much help and means I need to keep repeating the steps frequently!  Also it would be difficult for somebody yo understand the reason my tree on one branch suddenly changes from Harding to Dourass where the basis information is missing and the clues are within DNA and a couple of newspaper articles! 

2
Cheshire / Re: Alma Blanche Lukey / Alma Blanche Kelly b1867 - Death record help
« on: Tuesday 10 December 24 07:06 GMT (UK)  »
the Mrs and I had a free day yesterday so went on the hunt for Alma's burial location (its a 30 minute drive, and a chance to nip into ikea was too tempting  ;D), along with 2 of her first husband Patrick (1854-1903) children (Patrick 1892-1894) and Thomas (1897-1897)

We didn't expect to find a marker, many people don't have them and knowing the family background there wasn't likely the money to pay for one.

In terms of her first husband and her children - we could not identify the areas at all!  Im awaiting a response from the council to see if they can help identify the location and chances are we will nip in the future.

Alma and George, again unmarked, appear to be in a location with other unmarked stones....  Using the few marked graves as a reference, we identified the rough areas where they are located.

Documented on FaG
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/277124435/alma-cross

3
Cheshire / Re: Alma Blanche Lukey / Alma Blanche Kelly b1867 - Death record help
« on: Saturday 07 December 24 11:45 GMT (UK)  »
Further evidence!

Curiosity got the better of me, but I wanted to know who registered George Cross death.... I'm glad I did!

Quote
George Cross - Died 11th Apr 1920 at infirmary, Warrington.
Last address 84 Mercer Street, Newton, and he was a bricklayers labourer.

Died of Acute pulmonary pneumonia

Reported by P Kelly, stepson, 84 Mercer Street, Newton on the 12th Apr.

P Kelly, I will assume to be Patrick Kelly, b 1904

Patrick Kelly is found in 1921 with Lily Elizabeth, both living with their brother John, his wife and children at 26 Orchard Street, Wigan

4
Cheshire / Re: Alma Blanche Lukey / Alma Blanche Kelly b1867 - Death record help
« on: Friday 06 December 24 09:01 GMT (UK)  »
A quick Friday morning update on this!  First, we want to thank everybody who has helped/contributed in any way to unpick Alma's story!  I think we would have been perpetually stuck with this one given the potential unofficial surname change!

The crucial link which binds Alma to the Cross name is the WW1 pension records, but somewhat more importantly the PoW information for her son William, which gave a DoB of 23 Jul 1897 (officially, the year is wrong by 2 years, but given the variety of years we have been looking at  ;D....)

This DoB in this PoW document perfectly ties to a 1939 record where we find a William Kelly of the same DoB with Margaret Gertrude Higham and a number of children, and tracing backwards located their marriage in 1919, Wigan.

However, the curveball is this marriage shows William as "William Joseph Kelly" - Pre marriage, there is no suggestion he ever had a middle name and when researching some 6 months ago, we originally discounted this pairing as the wrong William!

With this new information I needed access to this marriage certificate to see what was on it, but I remained on the fence about ordering, I generally only order paper certs where there is an almost certainty that it's the correct person.

I happened to be looking at Ancestry Thrulines for my wife's DNA and stumbled across a suggestion of a match that routed through Alma and then William Kelly - why we didn't explorer this earlier I don't know!  The tree appeared to be good and detailed enough tree, so I started doing my due diligence to verify the information.  A few things stuck out - IE very specific dates for BMD's.  I decided to reach out to the creator of the tree and manager of the DNA record, explaining the position and the information found so far.

This morning, they sent me a number of certificates, including William and Mary's marriage (4th Aug 1919) which shows William as a coal hewer, and his father Patrick Kelly (deceased - coal hewer)

Bingo!  A marriage certificate and a verified family path down to the DNA match via William Kelly confirms that the uncovered story of Alma post 1911 and that she at some point she became Alma Cross and partnered with George Cross!!

As for her daughter Lily Elizabeth, born 1907, she 100% won't be Patrick's, and I suspect that George Cross won't be her father either, although clearly had a hand in looking after her (although using the term loosely based on the news articles!).  Speaking with my mother in law, she explained how the neglect article 'rang true' with Lily as she was always precious about making sure that no food was ever wasted and it was always known that the family line had a rough upbringing.

I am sure there might be a handful of new finds as we continue to dig and I will 100% share them here as appropriate.  Chances are myself and my wife will take a trip down to Newton Cemetery in the coming months as its not too far away, to see if (and it's a big if!!) there is a headstone for Alma and George, as well to see if we can locate the communal resting place/marker of Patrick.

5
Cheshire / Re: Alma Blanche Lukey / Alma Blanche Kelly b1867 - Death record help
« on: Wednesday 04 December 24 15:20 GMT (UK)  »
Yep, that his birth record I have attributed to William on my tree, son of Alma + Patrick.

The text in the article says "Mr and Mrs Kelly" - no W Kelly other than when referring to William?

However an oddity im looking at is that GRO has his birth registered in 1895, and a transcription of the PoW record shows a birth date of 1897.  1901  census suggests 1896 and 1911 suggests 1893!  It's likely a mistake either in documentation or more than likely, simply not known - given the massive variation of DoB's we have seen for this family so far, im very much leaning the way of 'its about right!

I have also found who I think William might be in 1939, DoB the same given on the PoW notes (23rd July 1897 in 1939 vs 27th July 1897 in PoW), marriage to a Mary (possibly nee Higham), documented as working in a colliery but moved over to Yorkshire!


6
Cheshire / Re: Alma Blanche Lukey / Alma Blanche Kelly b1867 - Death record help
« on: Wednesday 04 December 24 13:46 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks Jo!  I think we may have glimped at that one last night but figured the DoB was 6 years out compared to DoB the death index give us, and we had nothing else to go on so left it.

Lookup up addresses and their proximity to one another from the various sources:

1871: Alma: Cornwall
1881: Alma: Mercers Row, Newton
1890: Alma: Gas Street (no reference as to exactly where, but marriage was registered in Warrington so I assume Newton still)
1891: Alma: Mount Tabor, Leigh
1901: Alma: 17 Vista Road, Newton
1902: Alma: Reportedly wounding neighbour Marie Kenny at Hazel-Grove, Newton
1903: Patrick Kelly: Death cert 17 Aug 1903 - 17 Hazel Grove, Newton
1906: Alma: Suez Street, Newton
1911: Alma: 117 Crow Lane, Newton
1914: Alma: Cross/William Kelly WW1 pension: Hunsworth/Unsworth Yard
1914: George Cross with 'mother and 7 year old': Hand and Banner Yard
1920: Alma Cross: 84 Mercer Street

1911 for Alma: 117 Crow Lane
Suggested death location 84 Mercer Street.

Mercer Street is off Crow Lane
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.0&lat=53.45788&lon=-2.62348&layers=168&b=ESRIWorld&o=100&marker=53.45788,-2.62348

Vista road and Hazel Grove:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.4&lat=53.45893&lon=-2.64490&layers=6&b=ESRIWorld&o=100&marker=53.45897,-2.64442


Seuz Street is a bit further away - although the absolute irony is Suez Street is off Alma Street  ;D
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.6&lat=53.45103&lon=-2.64125&layers=168&b=ESRIWorld&o=100&marker=53.45103,-2.64059

The Hand and Banner Yard, I cant immediately find it on the map, however looking on BNA for the yard name returns quite a few results, but these caught my eye:

Quote
DEATH OF MRS. bAGNILL
... T. J. Gillespie, Sarah Jane Shaw, a married woman,living apart from her husband,was charged with being drunk in the Hand and Banner yard, High-st., Newton, atl2 20, on Spnday morning last. She was fined 2s. 6J. and costs. The evidence disclosed a shocking ...

Published: Saturday 02 July 1892
Newspaper: St. Helens Examiner
County: Lancashire, England
Type: Article | Words: 720 | Page: 5 | Tags: none

Quote
Sales by Auction. yae ypw folio° . WeetiP regy r S a° (Jai ' ut wh ics. R nd S,
... RENT, £3 16s. 6d. a THOSE SIX LEASEHOLD MESSU'Nos-•0 or DWELLING-HOCSES situate and being rt e „ A 2,3 , 4, 5 and 6 Hand and Banner Yard. High-14,7t, Newton-le-Willows, in the occupation of Messrs. etl, Howell, Singleton and others. c'ss Annual Rents £53 ...

Published: Saturday 12 March 1910
Newspaper: St. Helens Examiner
County: Lancashire, England
Type: Article | Words: 3171 | Page: 4, 5 | Tags: none

Quote
WATER CDMMITTEE,
... granted to (a) Mr Richard Jones, of 6, Bridge-street, Earlestown, for the use and occupation of premises situate at the Hand and Banner-yard, High-street, Newton-le-Willows ; (b) Mr George Wilde, of 52, Legh-street, Earlestown, for premises situate at the ...

Published: Friday 07 November 1902
Newspaper: St. Helens Examiner
County: Lancashire, England
Type: Article | Words: 1002 | Page: 5 | Tags: none

I think those samples above are enough to show that this Hand and Banner Yard is off High Street, which is right next to Mercer Street!  Its the same with Unsworth Yard...

Quote
It happened 50 years ago
... following properties for human habitation until in the judgment of the council they were made fit: three cottages in Unsworth’s yard, off High Street, Newton; two cottages in Brown’s yard, off High Street; one cottage in Gee's yard, off High Street; one ...

Published: Friday 08 June 1962
Newspaper: Newton and Earlestown Guardian
County: Lancashire, England
Type: Article | Words: 177 | Page: 6 | Tags: none

7
Cheshire / Re: Alma Blanche Lukey / Alma Blanche Kelly b1867 - Death record help
« on: Wednesday 04 December 24 12:39 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: jo1962 on Wednesday 04 December 24 12:21 GMT (UK)
It's very possible that Alma just adopted George Cross's name without marrying him. I have ancestors who have done this. I found George in the 1911 census living with family. He is listed as single so I think you can rule out a case of bigamy!  I have full subscription to find my past, please feel free to private message me if I can be of help.
Jo

PM sent :) 

Would you mind sharing where he was living please in the 1911 record you have found?  Been up to my eyeballs with work so not had a chance to take a look at this myself yet!

Edit: 84 Mercer Street in:
1911 census appears to be occupied by a Travers family
1921 census appears to be occupied by a Huges family.


8
Cheshire / Re: Alma Blanche Lukey / Alma Blanche Kelly b1867 - Death record help
« on: Wednesday 04 December 24 09:22 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks - Just managed to get access to those articles in full... as you say not fully conclusive but the dots are 100% there

It's just joining them up with the 'smoking gun' evidence, or at least being able to prove the other way!

There is something itching my brain about the William Kelly/Alma pension notes and then sending a letter to an address listed on Alma's death cert!!!  I note FindMyPast has WW1 PoW records, I did do a search last night which did some results of potential interest, however as I don't have a FindMyPast sub, I can't access the full details other than name and record type :(  I might have to await a free weekend or just sub for a month to see if there is anything of interest there.

If I get time later, I might see if I can crawl through the 1911 and 1921 censuses for some of the addresses listed to see if any clues are hiding there.



Still looking for a marriage between a George Cross and an 'Alma' or 'Blanche'.  The school attendance article may have helped narrow the range to look through, although I do have to keep in mind that the 7 year old and mother might be somebody else completely and it just be a coincidence!

9
Cheshire / Re: Alma Blanche Lukey / Alma Blanche Kelly b1867 - Death record help
« on: Tuesday 03 December 24 20:14 GMT (UK)  »
The burial record for Alma Cross - jury still out.

I noted that the record was twinned with a 2nd burial for a George cross who passed ~1 month later with a burial date of 16/04/1920....

the William Kelly WW1 pension record document also sparked an interest - in the grand scheme of things, not many people with Alma as the first name, and the chances of having a son with the same name and estimated DoB as the one I'm looking for, in roughly the right place......

When doing a search for a marriage, I could not find anything which immediately jumped out, although I did limit my search to between 1911 and 1920.  I also note I could not immediately find a 1911 record for an Alma Cross... but I've seen name changes before without marriage so I didn't add too much weight to it.

I took a punt on ordering the death cert for Alma Cross in the hope the informant maybe of use/give a clue - unfortunately, it's inconclusive as it lists the informant as George Cross, husband.

Alma Cross passed 4-Mar-1920 at 84 Mercer Street, Newton, aged 46.  Wife of George Cross, she is listed as being a Labourer at Calico Print Works.  Cause of death Malignant disease of the liver, and the informant was George Cross (husband) who was present at death.

One thing that stood out here is the bit I have highlighted.  It suggested Alma was working.  Whilst liver disease is a tick 'in the right direction of what we know about her upbringing, working at a print works seems a bit of a stretch given all of the censuses I have found for her either lists Housekeeper, or nothing at all.....

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 7