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World War One / Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« on: Wednesday 30 April 25 13:30 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Andy, that's an extremely kind offer of you. I'll see how I go 
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World War One / Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« on: Wednesday 30 April 25 10:09 BST (UK) »Quote
Perhaps one way of resolving the issue would be to ask the HAC Museum if they know the answer.
Thank you Andy, and thank you Jim, it does look like there might be no needle in the haystack to find. But I may - just may - try to contact the HAC, even though I came across a page specifically for researchers which says they sold on their records to Find My Past and don't hold formal military service records anymore. Which I can understand, who needs us family researchers constantly harassing what is probably a fairly small organisation.
In the past, during a subscription, I've looked at Alec's records on Find My Past but clearly they didn't tell me anything I didn't already know as I didn't download them, and now I'd have to pay for a sub again.
But now I'm curious about what equipment they used - so they may still hear from me!
Here is the link I found for people wanting to research the Honourable Artillery Company in WW1.
https://hac.org.uk/images/PDFs/20210623_-_Researchers_Guide_-_Members_of_the_HAC_in_the_First_World_War.pdf
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World War One / Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« on: Tuesday 29 April 25 13:36 BST (UK) »Quote
On the face of it it sounds like a standing barrage as a creeping
barrage wouldn't last for hours.
BTW that is what I also thought, assuming whoever wrote that in the book was remembering correctly.
In the preface is:
"The story which is to follow is the work of many pens. Some narratives show the point of view of the unit-commander. Others are written by those whose military status and viewpoint were quite different. There will thus be no rigid uniformity in the manner of presenting facts or opinions."
(Source) HONOURABLE ARTILLERY COMPANY IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919 (p. 10). Kindle Edition.
It looks like a great book, I have to say, if interested in the HAC.
It also says "Quot homines, tot sententiæ" or "As many men, so many opinions". I recently wrote a whole website about one of my Uncles who was in the RAF and became a POW for 5 years. In listening to many audio interviews, and comparing them to my (late) Uncle's recall of that time, and then comparing them to known events and facts of that time... that's when I learnt memory is a slippery beast!
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World War One / Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« on: Tuesday 29 April 25 13:22 BST (UK) »
Hello Jim, it was you who cracked the mystery of which Division he was attached to and the Brigade he was with - that was a couple of years ago.
He was with the Honourable Artillery Company, 2/B, which arrived in France June 1917 (from memory now). The HAC had become the 126 Bde by that point (which you'd found). From various War Diaries concerning the 48th Div, it looks like they were moved around to whichever operations needed their artillery backup. So it was only a few days before the start of the Passchendaele campaign that the 126 and 291 Bdes were allocated to their post.
A problem with war Diaries is that the ones I've been sped-read through do not specify the 126 Bd per se - it feels a bit like the HAC men are independent operatives who don't have a good handle on record keeping! (Lt. Colonel Clifford was their boss). I've pieced together a bit from here and a bit from there to form the picture of where they ended up on the battle front. So I may have erred, but I think I've got it more or less right.
The 3 diaries where I've found info in are: 48th (SM) DIVISION (GS) (Diary, Orders, Reports, Maps etc), 48th DIVISION A & Q BRANCH (Diary, Casualties, Honours List), 143rd INFANTRY BDE (Diary, Orders, Operations, Maps, Narratives, Report Qs, Report Answers). I looked at a few others but they were self-inflicted red herrings.
The filters I used for the Diaries were St Julien and October 1917, especially the 4th. But I've also looked at movements in the month before and after to see what was happening and who was where when. Interestingly, I suspect my Grandfather was at, or near, the same location as his cousin Alec, serving in the Mobile Veterinary Corps. (That's another whole lot research to do one day - my Grandfather is even harder to trace).
I'm attaching the orders which defined the groupings of the attack and also the available artillery. You posted me this originally It's part of the 48th South Midlands Diary.
He was with the Honourable Artillery Company, 2/B, which arrived in France June 1917 (from memory now). The HAC had become the 126 Bde by that point (which you'd found). From various War Diaries concerning the 48th Div, it looks like they were moved around to whichever operations needed their artillery backup. So it was only a few days before the start of the Passchendaele campaign that the 126 and 291 Bdes were allocated to their post.
A problem with war Diaries is that the ones I've been sped-read through do not specify the 126 Bd per se - it feels a bit like the HAC men are independent operatives who don't have a good handle on record keeping! (Lt. Colonel Clifford was their boss). I've pieced together a bit from here and a bit from there to form the picture of where they ended up on the battle front. So I may have erred, but I think I've got it more or less right.
The 3 diaries where I've found info in are: 48th (SM) DIVISION (GS) (Diary, Orders, Reports, Maps etc), 48th DIVISION A & Q BRANCH (Diary, Casualties, Honours List), 143rd INFANTRY BDE (Diary, Orders, Operations, Maps, Narratives, Report Qs, Report Answers). I looked at a few others but they were self-inflicted red herrings.
The filters I used for the Diaries were St Julien and October 1917, especially the 4th. But I've also looked at movements in the month before and after to see what was happening and who was where when. Interestingly, I suspect my Grandfather was at, or near, the same location as his cousin Alec, serving in the Mobile Veterinary Corps. (That's another whole lot research to do one day - my Grandfather is even harder to trace).
I'm attaching the orders which defined the groupings of the attack and also the available artillery. You posted me this originally
It's part of the 48th South Midlands Diary.5
World War One / Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« on: Tuesday 29 April 25 11:24 BST (UK) »
Hello Military-Experts,
I have tracked down, I think, the area where my Great Uncle Alec Beach (Regt. no 624941) was killed near St Julien 4th October 1917. I poured through heaps of diary entries and trench maps and certainly got the sense of the activities (and the horrors) at the time. And a couple of years ago, Andy and Jim were v. helpful educating me about weapons and types of barrages etc. as well as where Alec was initially buried before being re-interred in a CWG plot. So that's all good.
Yesterday I bought a book "The Honourable Artillery Company 1914-1919" (edited by MAJOR G. GOOLD WALKER), hoping it might contain a reference to Alec's death - and it did!
Referring to the 4th October 1917:
" The following day was one that will live in the memories of all who were up with the guns. A barrage was laid down just before daylight and continued intermittently for several hours. During this time we came under severe counter battery fire, and one shell burst on the light railway track against which all the guns were in position. This unfortunate shell killed Sergt. G. A. Frymann and Bdr. Beach, and wounded many others. The Boche prisoners were pouring back in small, unaccompanied groups, and it must be recorded that one German N.C.O., seeing the plight of the Battery, organized stretcher parties to assist in evacuating the wounded to the dressing station at Alberta. The guns were kept in action (the rate of fire being fortunately reduced) by, in some cases, one man per gun. Practically every day barrages were fired, and the difficulty in bringing the ammunition up to the Battery position was acute. This was mainly dumped by the roadside at night, and the gunners at the Battery position fetched it in the early morning with the aid of the light railway, although much was buried by shell fire in the muddy road. This was afterwards unearthed and salvaged by a working party from a well-known cavalry regiment. On October 9th the Battery had another strenuous day, the attack being on a six-mile front. The barrage started at 4.30 a.m. and almost continuous firing kept up until 6.30 p.m. After this a new S.O.S. line was laid, as the advance made by our troops extended to a depth of over 2000 yards on the north of our position. The 10th was spent in replenishing ammunition, H.E. being the predominating shell.
(Source: HONOURABLE ARTILLERY COMPANY IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919 (pp. 605-606). Kindle Edition.)
In the book's honours list, it says Alec died at Stroombeek. I have tracked down where the Coys were first gathered, at Flora Cottage, which was right next to Stroombeek Canal. Alec was with the 126th Bde and for this period was artillery supporting the 48th South Midlands Div, and the 126th was one of 4 Coys on the first day of the major offensive of Passchendaele.
My question is: would Alec have been part of the Standing Barrage or the part of the Creeping Barrage and which weapon was he operating? The book says Alec's artillery was in a line of others, adjacent to a light railway. (Which I'm assuming was built specifically to hasten ammunition delivery.) Does this set-up, of being in a line next to the railway, mean that Alec was operating one of the 4.5 Howitzers (of which they only had 6 covering the whole division according to war diaries operations records). The Division had use of 21 18 pounders too.
Thanks for reading this far, very much appreciated.
Image shows the location of Flora Cottage where the 48th assembled for that operation, and Stroombeek canal, N.E of St Julien.
I have tracked down, I think, the area where my Great Uncle Alec Beach (Regt. no 624941) was killed near St Julien 4th October 1917. I poured through heaps of diary entries and trench maps and certainly got the sense of the activities (and the horrors) at the time. And a couple of years ago, Andy and Jim were v. helpful educating me about weapons and types of barrages etc. as well as where Alec was initially buried before being re-interred in a CWG plot. So that's all good.
Yesterday I bought a book "The Honourable Artillery Company 1914-1919" (edited by MAJOR G. GOOLD WALKER), hoping it might contain a reference to Alec's death - and it did!
Referring to the 4th October 1917:
" The following day was one that will live in the memories of all who were up with the guns. A barrage was laid down just before daylight and continued intermittently for several hours. During this time we came under severe counter battery fire, and one shell burst on the light railway track against which all the guns were in position. This unfortunate shell killed Sergt. G. A. Frymann and Bdr. Beach, and wounded many others. The Boche prisoners were pouring back in small, unaccompanied groups, and it must be recorded that one German N.C.O., seeing the plight of the Battery, organized stretcher parties to assist in evacuating the wounded to the dressing station at Alberta. The guns were kept in action (the rate of fire being fortunately reduced) by, in some cases, one man per gun. Practically every day barrages were fired, and the difficulty in bringing the ammunition up to the Battery position was acute. This was mainly dumped by the roadside at night, and the gunners at the Battery position fetched it in the early morning with the aid of the light railway, although much was buried by shell fire in the muddy road. This was afterwards unearthed and salvaged by a working party from a well-known cavalry regiment. On October 9th the Battery had another strenuous day, the attack being on a six-mile front. The barrage started at 4.30 a.m. and almost continuous firing kept up until 6.30 p.m. After this a new S.O.S. line was laid, as the advance made by our troops extended to a depth of over 2000 yards on the north of our position. The 10th was spent in replenishing ammunition, H.E. being the predominating shell.
(Source: HONOURABLE ARTILLERY COMPANY IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919 (pp. 605-606). Kindle Edition.)
In the book's honours list, it says Alec died at Stroombeek. I have tracked down where the Coys were first gathered, at Flora Cottage, which was right next to Stroombeek Canal. Alec was with the 126th Bde and for this period was artillery supporting the 48th South Midlands Div, and the 126th was one of 4 Coys on the first day of the major offensive of Passchendaele.
My question is: would Alec have been part of the Standing Barrage or the part of the Creeping Barrage and which weapon was he operating? The book says Alec's artillery was in a line of others, adjacent to a light railway. (Which I'm assuming was built specifically to hasten ammunition delivery.) Does this set-up, of being in a line next to the railway, mean that Alec was operating one of the 4.5 Howitzers (of which they only had 6 covering the whole division according to war diaries operations records). The Division had use of 21 18 pounders too.
Thanks for reading this far, very much appreciated.
Image shows the location of Flora Cottage where the 48th assembled for that operation, and Stroombeek canal, N.E of St Julien.
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Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs / Re: My grandfather, James Broadbent Haigh, 1874-1923. Date of photo?
« on: Thursday 30 November 23 02:57 GMT (UK) »Of the ones there, I wondered about a 1916 FK
Good find Arthurk. I think you're right, 1912-1916 from the images. From 1916 I fancy the 1916 H20 model because it has those square cowl lights on the side. Must have square cowl lights and healthy gap from windscreen to where the curved bonnet starts.
I also saw a couple of other contenders from earlier based on square cowl etc.
When I went on an image hunt yesterday, all I could find with a curved bonnet was Renault too.
Apparently it was the deluxe cars which came with cowl lights; regular cars didn't and you'd have to pay extra if you wanted them. I'm not a car person. The things you learn
(But I did once own a Renault Gordini)7
Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs / Re: My grandfather, James Broadbent Haigh, 1874-1923. Date of photo?
« on: Wednesday 29 November 23 07:22 GMT (UK) »
I am not a car expert either, but if no-one answers on Rootschat, if you google "antique automobile club UK" you will find lots of clubs who will be able to help identify the car. It looks quite distinctive with it's round front bonnet - and if the owner can afford your grandfather to drive around his golf clubs, it's probably top of the range!
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Armed Forces / Re: Using A Soldier's Payslip Help Determine WW1 Enlistment Date
« on: Tuesday 21 November 23 12:19 GMT (UK) »
The unpublished thesis by Robert David Williams "A Social and Military History of the 1/8th Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, in the Great War"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ssk/
Starting page 40 it's said that "over 3,000 men have been identified who served in the Battalion during the war" and there is discussion about the numbering of the 8th and the numbers of the men who were posted into the Battalion form other regiments. There were 4 groups identified: Huntingdonshire Cyclist Battalion numbered 307649 through to 307737; the Suffolk Regiment, numbered 29316 to 29634 and 325001 to 325103; the ASC numbered from 33593 through to 33702 and men from Wiltshire 4857 to 5300 and from 306600 to 306863.
So, if this is correct, Regt. No. 3730 is most likely originally an 8th recruit and a 2/8th...?
Just thinking out loud.
And as Andy says " I would have expected number 3730 (that is, 1428 higher than the August number) to have easily been reached by late 1914 or early 1915" - although I'd best check newspapers to see if they were keeping score.
I do have a thesis, or article, which traces how enlistment numbers took a nose dive early-ish 1915.
Jim1 could be right and No. 3730 signed up Sept/Oct.
This is most likely a Holy Grail, I know
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ssk/
Starting page 40 it's said that "over 3,000 men have been identified who served in the Battalion during the war" and there is discussion about the numbering of the 8th and the numbers of the men who were posted into the Battalion form other regiments. There were 4 groups identified: Huntingdonshire Cyclist Battalion numbered 307649 through to 307737; the Suffolk Regiment, numbered 29316 to 29634 and 325001 to 325103; the ASC numbered from 33593 through to 33702 and men from Wiltshire 4857 to 5300 and from 306600 to 306863.
So, if this is correct, Regt. No. 3730 is most likely originally an 8th recruit and a 2/8th...?
Just thinking out loud.
And as Andy says " I would have expected number 3730 (that is, 1428 higher than the August number) to have easily been reached by late 1914 or early 1915" - although I'd best check newspapers to see if they were keeping score.
I do have a thesis, or article, which traces how enlistment numbers took a nose dive early-ish 1915.
Jim1 could be right and No. 3730 signed up Sept/Oct.
This is most likely a Holy Grail, I know
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Armed Forces / Re: Using A Soldier's Payslip Help Determine WW1 Enlistment Date
« on: Tuesday 21 November 23 09:55 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Andy. So are you saying the gratuity does or doesn't relate to length of service?
I had found Paul Nixon's page on the numbers and the 8th Warwicks, and he's also got a video which shows how to try find attestation papers close to the soldier's number you're seeking. I haven't got subs to FindMyPast, as he demonstrated, but did a quick attempt on the search allowed and came up with no numbers at all close to 3730. I wonder if those are the burnt ones.
In the War Diaries I recollect it being reported that enlistment numbers hadn't reached optimal by end of 1914 and that enlistment continued into early 1915. Further on that year of 1915 I recall that something like 128 more new recruits joined the battalion as they trained. Unfortunately I didn't save copies of those pages and don't have access at this time.
I have seen in, say, the Birmingham Post, reports of who enlisted week by week. I don't know when they started reporting that, but perhaps I can trawl through papers and see. That's the only subscription I have at the moment - newspapers have been a great source of information for me.
I doubt he was in the regular army before the outbreak of war, given his earlier occupations, but that's just a guess of course. Is this what you mean? That he may have been a regular?
I've learnt a lot from you and Jim1. I've ended up doing a pile of reading, it's been fascinating and an eye-opener re. the war's horrors.
I had found Paul Nixon's page on the numbers and the 8th Warwicks, and he's also got a video which shows how to try find attestation papers close to the soldier's number you're seeking. I haven't got subs to FindMyPast, as he demonstrated, but did a quick attempt on the search allowed and came up with no numbers at all close to 3730. I wonder if those are the burnt ones.
In the War Diaries I recollect it being reported that enlistment numbers hadn't reached optimal by end of 1914 and that enlistment continued into early 1915. Further on that year of 1915 I recall that something like 128 more new recruits joined the battalion as they trained. Unfortunately I didn't save copies of those pages and don't have access at this time.
I have seen in, say, the Birmingham Post, reports of who enlisted week by week. I don't know when they started reporting that, but perhaps I can trawl through papers and see. That's the only subscription I have at the moment - newspapers have been a great source of information for me.
I doubt he was in the regular army before the outbreak of war, given his earlier occupations, but that's just a guess of course. Is this what you mean? That he may have been a regular?
I've learnt a lot from you and Jim1. I've ended up doing a pile of reading, it's been fascinating and an eye-opener re. the war's horrors.