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Messages - DamonC

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1
Lanarkshire / Re: Crawford
« on: Monday 10 November 25 13:50 GMT (UK)  »
oh, and i see i earlier posted some names as my candidates for Johns parents. James Crawford and Jean Christie. Unfortunately ive since ruled that out. Got better at searching Scotlands People and found a death certificate for that John Crawford.

Found out the post 1855 deaths show parents names (you can include mothers maiden name in the search) so found a John C with Jean Christie as mum, right age, passing away in Scotland well after our John C was in Australia.
Back to the drawing board on that one.

2
Lanarkshire / Re: Crawford
« on: Monday 10 November 25 13:43 GMT (UK)  »
Thought i should update this incase someone else looking into this family stumbles upon this thread, as I myself have done. As others have found there are limited original, confirmed sources for anything in Scotland. Ie Georges birth or John, Janets birth, 1841 census details (some on ancestry have ppl who can clearly be found in 1851 census which means they arrent the right people) are all either unknown or maybe missing?

There are 2 documents relating to John and Janets 1838 wedding. 1 is the certificate available via Scotlands People (SP) that mentions their names and Johns occupation – Cotton Warper.

What confirms that these are the right people (and that Janets assumed maiden name- Taylor, is the correct one) is the second document. It’s a personal family possession (not mine) whats been photographed and uploaded to ancestry etc. It mentions the same names along with some others. 2 McIntyres as parish clerks. When you look these 2 up they are attached to the Eastwood Parish church but also as parish clerks who recorded things more widely than just their own congregation. The 3rd name on that certificate is what gives more interesting information- “married by me- Finlay Stewart”. He is NOT related to the Eastwood parish church (COS) but the Pollokshaws Burgher Church. So a separate church has done the marriage but its been reported and recorded at the local parish.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=894393.9

The church F Stewart was at first split in 1799 . The offshoot is available in SP under Other churches>Pollokshaws Associate. The naming of these churches and their splits is confusing because theyre similar and kept changing. But, I came across reference to a Burgher church burning down in 1847. This was the offshoot, not the original church.
Finlay Stewart was the minister of the Original church from 1810-1841. The records of this church are available in SP under other churches>Pollokshaws East Free. They only recorded baptisms so the marriage isn’t in these records. If you search births with this filter and for the last name Taylor you can find lots of people born in the right time period with the parents names being George Taylor and Mary Patrick. One of their children, born in 1819 is- “Jennet Taylor”. This baptism would’ve been performed by F Stewart. There is no John Crawford born at the “right” time though in these records. There are John Crawfords in same record but much later or earlier. So, either he is not himself born as part of this congregation or he was under a different first name. Ive started trying to make a family tree of all of those Crawfords born in Pollokshaws but they all seem to have a Scottish history past 1849.

After F Steward died the church split again. The new offshoot was called Pollokshaws United Original Succession. Its records aren’t in SP. They are in the NRS in Edinburgh. However, they do not include any baptisms or marriage. Just the church organizing committee minutes etc. Ive looked at these records and there are multiple mentions of John Crawford. Snr and Jnr. I have no way of proving if they are the right people or not. The fact though that the split occurred in 42 and that there are no birth records for this congregation in some way gives a plausible reason why there aren’t any birth records that I can find for the birth of Janet and Johns son George in 1843- if they remained in this area after marriage. That they named their Australian farm “Pollok Farm” suggests their connection was more than just a place where they stayed for a bit at the time they married..

The same church also had a congregation list for 1858 (after our Crawfords 1849 emmigration) and there are no Crawfords on that list. So I suspect they were a part of the congregation that doesn’t have any birth records but its just a suscpicion. Unless I can find a baptism list for that congregation that would hopefully show Georges birth in 1843. The church eventually joined the COS in 1956 and merged with a nearby congregation , which also seemingly is missing records- so im hoping to trying and hunt something down… somehow.

In my NRS visit I also looked at the Burghess roll for Pollokshaws. Burghess roll is as I understand it qualified tradespeople. Not quite knowing the “Warping” profession I was curious if it showed up there. There were no Crawfords listed there. I ran out of time but I came across reference to a Pollokshaws Weaving Society but the records for that weren’t online and were held in a collection offsite so couldn’t get to see those. Next time.

3
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Wednesday 29 October 25 17:20 GMT (UK)  »
Point taken.

I should also say ...meant to in first message. The staff in both places were really helpful. Particularly the lady i spoke to in Glasgow city archives. Gave lots of ideas and tips about different sources to check. Kudos to them.

4
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Wednesday 29 October 25 13:46 GMT (UK)  »
But i did find my ancestors name in the PUOS church minutes as being on a variety of committees etc. His name "John Crawford" is somewhat common though so i cant be 100% sure. Theres even JC jnr and snr. If i could get hold of the birth/baptism register then hopefully it whould show the birth of George Crawford in 43 (so far unable to find anything for him) then i would know. Not sure finding that is realistic though.

By understanding the records though and that the East Free baptism records represent the earlier history of the above church (pre 42) i can understand later records. So, the baptism records i think ive found for Johns wife Janet (or Jennet as SP has it) wouldve been done by the same Minister as their later marriage. The period that John wouldve been born (1815-1817) wouldve been under the East Free records too if he was born locally and in same congregation. All other local congregations seem to have birth records. So that indicates he mightve been born elsewhere.

The fact that they named their Australian farm Pollok farm is another factor that makes me think that they do have a stronger local connection than just getting married there.

5
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Wednesday 29 October 25 13:30 GMT (UK)  »
Before Civil registration began the Church of Scotland Ministers were, in theory, charged with keeping records of all Births and marriages in their area regardless of affinity to any particular church.

Unfortunately although some did this many did not, plus there was an onus on the individuals providing the information to the C of S clerks - some didn't as there was sometimes ill feeling between the congregations.

In addition to this the Burgher's went through a number of transitions as the congregations split and joined up with others until some remained with the Free Church and others rejoined the C of S - all records remained with the particular congregations who were their owners.

Another factor is the fire which destroyed the original church known as the "Kiln Kirk" - the "new" building opened in 1846 and was sadly demolished (due to vandalism) in 1976.

They went throught some transitions alright. I went to the NRS in Edinburgh and the Glasgow City Archives and looked the listed collections plus found one more that was quite relevant. ch3/1632 For Pollokshaws United Original Sucesssion 42-47. That had managers minutes, some financial records but unfortunately no baptismal register.

I started getting confused about the different congregations so made the attached doc to make sense of it. there are a few more contemporary sources that seems to mix up locations and congregations too. Hopefully ive made sense of that .

They were called Associate Presbytry (Burgher) then in 1799 most of the congregation split and became an Original Burgher congregation (old light) and kept the original church. Where the fennels graveyard is now. The minority of the congregation (new light) went to make a new church on Pollokshaws rd. Its this new chuch that burnt down in 1847 so in my case doesnt affect the records.

The Original Burghers kept the original location and based off dates on birth records held the original birth records (ch3/1636) too (the new light church baptisms ch3/1171 start in 1806 when they got their own church).

In 1841 the Original Burgher minister Finlay Stewart ( the guy who married my ancestor.. and the reason why i started trying to understand these churches and the records kept) died. There was an argument about the new minister. So, some split off to make their own church near Cogan Street (the only one still standing) Pollokshaws United Original Sucession. The records to this as i mention are just minutes etc and not baptism unfortunately. They did in the 1950s become part of COS and then merged with Auldfields Parish church to become Pollokshaws Parish. Theres no SP records for them or any baptisms listed on NRS but i am trying to figure out if the baptism records im after somehow got folded into an as yet unlisted COS record.

The original congregation got fed up with their organisation so in 1848 joined the free church. they moved to a new location in 1870. The old church became a community hall that eventually also burnt down in 1883. Even though they moved they seemed to retain the original records from the mid 18th century.

6
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Saturday 18 October 25 21:21 BST (UK)  »
The marriage banns were posted in Eastwood, and states "both in this parish". So at least one of them (bride OR groom, if not both) was from Eastwood.

In that context i had interpreted the phrase to be more of a geographical reference rather than their congregation. But that could be a wrong interpretation on my behalf?
The private certificate I included above has Finlay Stewart as the minister that married them, so thats behind my thoughts that they were a part of the Burgher Church. The other names there are interesting...Robert and Arhibald MacIntyre (session clk) appear repeatedly in the Eastwood Kirk Sessions around that time period.. as Elders i think. So my interpretation is that this marriage record appears in the COS listings because the COS there acted as more than just a religious institution and fulfilled other funtions. There marriage being registered in the Eastwood church could be apart of those functions rather than their religious affiliation.

The Scotlands people listings for marriages has nothing for any of the Pollokshaw Non-COS congregations. But, i dont know if thats a symptom of the church functions or the lack of surviving records.
I dont know if its because of incomplete records or a symptom of the different roles. Its also interesting that there are virtually no "other" documents for any Non COS congregations (only 2) so it seems to me like its a function thing rather than JUST lost records.

7
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Friday 17 October 25 12:38 BST (UK)  »
Information in the kirk sessions varies a bit between parishes. Yes "fornication" was recorded, and often other "questionable activities". The session often contain other records which can be useful.
Full information here -
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/help-and-support/guides/kirk-session-records

I see the accounts for Eastwood are only available for 1 year, which is a shame. The account records can be useful to know if people were receiving parish support, or had paid for a mort cloth, etc.

The communion roll books for Eastwood contain the names Crawford and Taylor, but I don't know enough about your families to know if there is any connection.

Also too, i dont have really any indication that they belonged to the Parish church at all either. The only thing i know for sure is the marriage in '38 by the Burgher Church minister Finlay Stewart. I think the association with the area was a bit longer term than that due to their Australian farm being called Pollok Farm.

8
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Friday 17 October 25 00:27 BST (UK)  »
John and Janet (with son George) migrated in 49. So any records after that would have to be some of their family still being in the area. Knowing who their family were is kinda the problem.

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Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Thursday 16 October 25 22:53 BST (UK)  »
Have you looked through the Eastwood Kirk Sessions in case there is mention of the family? They may have received parish relief.

I have had a look and theres one entry about a Crawford but its a woman named Mary getting pregnant out of wedlock and asking forgivness. But theres no known Marys in my family tree so not really clear it means anything.
Dont know what there Kirk sessions normally dealt with but seems quite a bit of Prenuptual Fornication going on .

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