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Messages - DamonC

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1
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Wednesday 29 October 25 17:20 GMT (UK)  »
Point taken.

I should also say ...meant to in first message. The staff in both places were really helpful. Particularly the lady i spoke to in Glasgow city archives. Gave lots of ideas and tips about different sources to check. Kudos to them.

2
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Wednesday 29 October 25 13:46 GMT (UK)  »
But i did find my ancestors name in the PUOS church minutes as being on a variety of committees etc. His name "John Crawford" is somewhat common though so i cant be 100% sure. Theres even JC jnr and snr. If i could get hold of the birth/baptism register then hopefully it whould show the birth of George Crawford in 43 (so far unable to find anything for him) then i would know. Not sure finding that is realistic though.

By understanding the records though and that the East Free baptism records represent the earlier history of the above church (pre 42) i can understand later records. So, the baptism records i think ive found for Johns wife Janet (or Jennet as SP has it) wouldve been done by the same Minister as their later marriage. The period that John wouldve been born (1815-1817) wouldve been under the East Free records too if he was born locally and in same congregation. All other local congregations seem to have birth records. So that indicates he mightve been born elsewhere.

The fact that they named their Australian farm Pollok farm is another factor that makes me think that they do have a stronger local connection than just getting married there.

3
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Wednesday 29 October 25 13:30 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: RJ_Paton on Saturday 18 October 25 21:43 BST (UK)
Before Civil registration began the Church of Scotland Ministers were, in theory, charged with keeping records of all Births and marriages in their area regardless of affinity to any particular church.

Unfortunately although some did this many did not, plus there was an onus on the individuals providing the information to the C of S clerks - some didn't as there was sometimes ill feeling between the congregations.

In addition to this the Burgher's went through a number of transitions as the congregations split and joined up with others until some remained with the Free Church and others rejoined the C of S - all records remained with the particular congregations who were their owners.

Another factor is the fire which destroyed the original church known as the "Kiln Kirk" - the "new" building opened in 1846 and was sadly demolished (due to vandalism) in 1976.

They went throught some transitions alright. I went to the NRS in Edinburgh and the Glasgow City Archives and looked the listed collections plus found one more that was quite relevant. ch3/1632 For Pollokshaws United Original Sucesssion 42-47. That had managers minutes, some financial records but unfortunately no baptismal register.

I started getting confused about the different congregations so made the attached doc to make sense of it. there are a few more contemporary sources that seems to mix up locations and congregations too. Hopefully ive made sense of that .

They were called Associate Presbytry (Burgher) then in 1799 most of the congregation split and became an Original Burgher congregation (old light) and kept the original church. Where the fennels graveyard is now. The minority of the congregation (new light) went to make a new church on Pollokshaws rd. Its this new chuch that burnt down in 1847 so in my case doesnt affect the records.

The Original Burghers kept the original location and based off dates on birth records held the original birth records (ch3/1636) too (the new light church baptisms ch3/1171 start in 1806 when they got their own church).

In 1841 the Original Burgher minister Finlay Stewart ( the guy who married my ancestor.. and the reason why i started trying to understand these churches and the records kept) died. There was an argument about the new minister. So, some split off to make their own church near Cogan Street (the only one still standing) Pollokshaws United Original Sucession. The records to this as i mention are just minutes etc and not baptism unfortunately. They did in the 1950s become part of COS and then merged with Auldfields Parish church to become Pollokshaws Parish. Theres no SP records for them or any baptisms listed on NRS but i am trying to figure out if the baptism records im after somehow got folded into an as yet unlisted COS record.

The original congregation got fed up with their organisation so in 1848 joined the free church. they moved to a new location in 1870. The old church became a community hall that eventually also burnt down in 1883. Even though they moved they seemed to retain the original records from the mid 18th century.

4
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Saturday 18 October 25 21:21 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Neale1961 on Saturday 18 October 25 01:47 BST (UK)
The marriage banns were posted in Eastwood, and states "both in this parish". So at least one of them (bride OR groom, if not both) was from Eastwood.

In that context i had interpreted the phrase to be more of a geographical reference rather than their congregation. But that could be a wrong interpretation on my behalf?
The private certificate I included above has Finlay Stewart as the minister that married them, so thats behind my thoughts that they were a part of the Burgher Church. The other names there are interesting...Robert and Arhibald MacIntyre (session clk) appear repeatedly in the Eastwood Kirk Sessions around that time period.. as Elders i think. So my interpretation is that this marriage record appears in the COS listings because the COS there acted as more than just a religious institution and fulfilled other funtions. There marriage being registered in the Eastwood church could be apart of those functions rather than their religious affiliation.

The Scotlands people listings for marriages has nothing for any of the Pollokshaw Non-COS congregations. But, i dont know if thats a symptom of the church functions or the lack of surviving records.
I dont know if its because of incomplete records or a symptom of the different roles. Its also interesting that there are virtually no "other" documents for any Non COS congregations (only 2) so it seems to me like its a function thing rather than JUST lost records.

5
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Friday 17 October 25 12:38 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Neale1961 on Thursday 16 October 25 23:21 BST (UK)
Information in the kirk sessions varies a bit between parishes. Yes "fornication" was recorded, and often other "questionable activities". The session often contain other records which can be useful.
Full information here -
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/help-and-support/guides/kirk-session-records

I see the accounts for Eastwood are only available for 1 year, which is a shame. The account records can be useful to know if people were receiving parish support, or had paid for a mort cloth, etc.

The communion roll books for Eastwood contain the names Crawford and Taylor, but I don't know enough about your families to know if there is any connection.

Also too, i dont have really any indication that they belonged to the Parish church at all either. The only thing i know for sure is the marriage in '38 by the Burgher Church minister Finlay Stewart. I think the association with the area was a bit longer term than that due to their Australian farm being called Pollok Farm.

6
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Friday 17 October 25 00:27 BST (UK)  »
John and Janet (with son George) migrated in 49. So any records after that would have to be some of their family still being in the area. Knowing who their family were is kinda the problem.

7
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Thursday 16 October 25 22:53 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Neale1961 on Tuesday 14 October 25 01:22 BST (UK)
Have you looked through the Eastwood Kirk Sessions in case there is mention of the family? They may have received parish relief.

I have had a look and theres one entry about a Crawford but its a woman named Mary getting pregnant out of wedlock and asking forgivness. But theres no known Marys in my family tree so not really clear it means anything.
Dont know what there Kirk sessions normally dealt with but seems quite a bit of Prenuptual Fornication going on .

8
Lanarkshire / Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« on: Thursday 16 October 25 22:49 BST (UK)  »
as i posted in the other thread that was just linked.
Pollokshaw Burgher split into 2 congregations (either 42 or 48 depending how you interpret the text linked in other thread). One became East Free the other Pollokshaws United Presbyterian . Juding by the number of birth records shown by using the filters on these in Scotlands People then East Free retained far more information.

As part of finding this and looking at the list of records available in NRS i saw 2 collections containing something from these 2 churches.
Ch3/1171- Pollokshaws Associate, Pollokshaws Burgher, Pollokshaws United Presbyterian
AND
Pollokshaws - East Free (CH3/1636) RENFREW

The entry on NRS for the first one just mentions a brief description of the church history. no details about whats in the collection.  When i filter on birth records from this "Pollokshaw Associate" then there are just 312 births https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/browseDetails.aspx?reference=CH3/1171&st=

For the NRS entry on the EAST FREE Collection. https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/browseDetails.aspx?reference=CH3/1636&st=
It says -
This collection has been arranged in the following way -
1. Kirk Session Minutes - no records listed
2. Board Minutes - no records listed
3. Financial Records - no records listed
4. Communion Rolls - no records listed
5. Baptismal Registers
6. Marriage Proclamation Registers - no records listed
7. Marriage Registers - no records listed
8. Commemorative Records - no records listed
9. Organisation Records - no records listed
10. Photographs - no records listed
11. Other sections

But i am not sure if "no records listed" means they have nothing like that in the collection or not..
In addition, Theres a seperate sublisting for CH3/1636/5/1. It says that access to this is closed as its not fit for production. but theres digital copies viewable.

So, whilst ive found out more, I am none the wiser on if its worth trying to go visit these in person to see if theres any more information than whats available already via Scotlands people. Are there anything but birth records in these collections? What makes it complicated is that the one i link to first is apparently in the Glasgow City Archives - Mitchell Library. Whereas the second one is in Edinburgh. I definitely dont have time for both unfortunately.
TBH if theres no real prospect of finding anything extra id rather spend my day of free time next week looking around Glasgow or Edinburgh instead!


9
Renfrewshire / Re: (O.S.Minister) Clement Moscrip Pollokshaws
« on: Thursday 16 October 25 22:11 BST (UK)  »
Obviously this is a very late update on this thread. but have been looking into something related to the same church.

Much of what ive found out comes from here-
https://ia601307.us.archive.org/16/items/annalsstatistics00scot/annalsstatistics00scot.pdf
The burgher church had their minister Finlay Stewart die in 1841. There was some fluffing about before Clement Moscrip was his replacement later in 1842.
Seemingly there was some controversy there as another group split off in 42 (or 48 its not quite clear in above doc- see page 418-419). Then one of these splits became the Free church the other eventually under United Presbyterian. There was seemingly some controversy about C Moscript on his appointment but its unclear if the split happened then or after he had died.

In anycase i think he was a Minister in Pollokshaw Burgher Church.

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