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Messages - countingnames

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1
Caithness / Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« on: Sunday 28 March 21 14:31 BST (UK)  »
Hello Jenny,

Thanks for the in-depth reply and taking the time to help me. We have the original marriage certificate. Peter was 39 in 1855, so he was born in 1816. In 1855, the certificate says he was living in Reiss, Wick. He was working as a farm manager. According to Freecen, Catherine Bain was living at the next residence with other Sutherlands at the house/street called 'Parkside'. I agree, I think things might be clarified if I gained a copy of the original census record. Thank you a lot for the information about the Ross children, it is good to know their relation to Elizabeth. I will definitely think about unlocking her death certificate to see who were her parents.

Hi Countingnames,

So sorry, I have only just seen your post...for some reason I didn't get a notification  ::)

Sutherland is an extremely common name, as are John and Catherine. You are VERY lucky that your Peter Sutherland married just after Registration otherwise it would have been near impossible to get back any further.

As it stands though, there appear to be a number of Peter Sutherlands born in Latheron Parish around that time. I presume that the approx. birth date of 1816 is from his marriage certificate? I can see his death in the index at Scotland's People as below, and it shows an approx. birth of 1813:

SUTHERLAND
PETER   
64yrs (born abt 1813)
SUTHERLAND (Mother's maiden name)
1877
043/ 87
Wick

The newspaper entry for his death also states he was 64yrs of age:

3 May 1877 - John o' Groat Journal (Wick, Caithness, Scotland)
DEATHS: At Huddart Street, Pulteneytown, on the 28th ult., Mr Peter Sutherland, maltman, aged 64 years.

The index entry on Scotland's People for his marriage of course does not gives clues to his birth date:

PETER SUTHERLAND
JANE MURRAY
1855
043/2 18
Wick Landward

I am presuming from the death notice that this is you family in the census (from Freecen), which gives approx. birth dates of 1811 & 1813 respectively:

1861 - Wick, Caithness

SUTHERLAND    Peter    Head    M    M    50    Maltster    CAI    Latheron       
SUTHERLAND    Jane    Wife    M    F    47    Maltster's Wife    CAI    Dunnet       
SUTHERLAND    Alexr    Son    -    M    4    Maltster's Son    CAI    Wick       
SUTHERLAND    Peter Jas    Son    -    M    2    Maltster's Son    CAI    Wick

1871 - Huddart Street, Wick, Caithness

SUTHERLAND    Peter    Head    M    M    58    Maltman    CAI    Berridale       
SUTHERLAND    Jane    Wife    M    F    54    -    CAI    Dunnet       
SUTHERLAND    Peter    Son    -    M    12    Scholar    CAI    Wick       
SUTHERLAND    George    Son    -    M    9    Scholar    CAI    Wick       
MOODIE    Janet    Lodger    W    F    83    -    CAI    Dunnet

It also looks like they lost their eldest son in 1861, aged just 4yrs.

SUTHERLAND
ALEXANDER
4yrs
MURRAY (Mother's maiden name)
1861
043/1 101
Wick Burgh

Trying to locate Peter Sutherland prior to his marriage is more of a challenge....what does the marriage certificate say about his residence and occupation in 1855?

From Freecen perhaps the best match in the 1851 census is below, with an approx. birth date of 1816 and occupation of a farm labourer, though it is not perfect:

1851 - Killminster, Wick, Caithness

HORNE    William M    Head    U    M    22    Farm Labourer    CAI    Canisbay       
SUTHERLAND    Peter    -    U    M    33    Farm Labourer    CAI    Latheron       
ANGUS    James    -    U    M    20    Agricultural Labourer    CAI    Dunnet       
CALDER    John    -    U    M    19    Ag. Lab. (Shepherd)    CAI    Wick       
RONALDSON    James    -    U    M    14    Herd    CAI    Dunnet       
SUTHERLAND    Jane    -    U    F    21    House Servant    CAI    Wick

and the best match for 1841 is the census you found, though the record on Freecen does not show a Catherine Bain present....have you seen the original on Scotland's People? Is there a transcription error on Freecen?

1841 - Parkside, Latheron, Caithness

SUTHERLAND    John    M    90    Farmer    CAI    
SUTHERLAND    Catherine    F    55       CAI    
SUTHERLAND    Peter    M    25    Ag. Labourer    CAI    
SUTHERLAND    John    M    20    Ag. Labourer    CAI    
SUTHERLAND    Elizabeth    F    25       CAI    
ROSS    Alexr    M    5       CAI    
ROSS    Catherine    F    3       CAI

It is possible that the age of John Sutherland in this record has been mistranscribed, or that it was a second marriage much later in life for him, he could also be the grandfather or another type of relative, as no relationships are given at this time. I would recommend looking at the original record, and perhaps trying to chase the other siblings or the Ross children (they may be his nieces & nephews).

The Latheron/Berriedale baptisms are terribly sparse, and on Scotland's People I cannot see a Peter Sutherland with a father 'John Sutherland' baptised between the years of 1800-1820 at all. There are lots of John's and Elizabeth's though, and with no mother's name given in baptisms at this time it is impossible to tell if any of them match the possible siblings in the 1841 census return.

Jenny

2
Caithness / Re: 1851 Census Search (Anne MacKay)
« on: Thursday 21 January 21 15:21 GMT (UK)  »
Name: Johan Mackay Age: 1 Mo .... I assume Johan also is one of their sons.
No, don't assume that. Johan is a version of Johanna/Joan/Joanna/Joanne in the Highlands.

Also, I don't know which transcription you are using, but the far better transcription at FreeCEN https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl says the baby is female.

The 1861 isn't yet on FreeCEN, but FindMyPast's transcription does include the information that Ann is widowed.

Millmoor has answered your specific question, but the answer to the general question is

(a) use a better transcription.

FreeCEN is the best available, but doesn't yet cover all years. However even FreeCEN is far from perfect because it does not include all the information from the header of each census page.

FindMyPast isn't as good as FreeCEN, because it doen't include all the details in the main page - you sometimes have to scroll down to see occupations and places of birth - and it adds a (usually mis)calculated year of birth, which is never recorded in the original census. Also it sometimes assigns people to the wrong household.

Ancestry is the worst, because it does all the same wrong things, but also it omits family relationships, and its ability to mangle even perfectly legible names and place names is legendary.

(b) once you have found a transcription, go to www.scotlandspeople, invest in a batch of credits and use a few of them to view and download the original document, so that you can eliminate all the errors made by transcribers.

Thank you for all the advice. Very useful. :)

3
Caithness / Re: 1851 Census Search (Anne MacKay)
« on: Wednesday 20 January 21 09:36 GMT (UK)  »
There is this one on Freecen:

Halkirk - address Brachour

John McKay 70 Pauper b Halkirk
Ann McKay 43 wife b Reay
Mary McKay 14 dau b Halkirk
John McKay 7 son b Halkirk
Roderic McKay 8mo son b Halkirk


William

That's it!!! Thank you so very much. :)

4
Caithness / 1851 Census Search (Anne MacKay)
« on: Wednesday 20 January 21 07:55 GMT (UK)  »
Hello, I am looking for a 1851 census entry for a Ann McKay (spelt alternatively as Anne MacKay).

Her census entry for 1841 looks like this:
Achinkail , Halkirk , Caithness
John Mackay Age 55
Anne Mackay Age 30 born Caithness
Janet Mackay Age 11
Donald Mackay Age 7
Mary Mackay Age 4
Johan Mackay Age 1 Mo

Janet, Donald and Mary are confirmed as the children of John and Anne. I assume Johan also is one of their sons.

I cannot find the 1851 census record for this family.

Here is the Anne's 1861 census record:
Plockan , Halkirk , Caithness.
Ann Mckay Age 47 ag. lab born Thurso, Caithness
Mary Mckay Age 22
Roderick Mckay Age 9

I know Roderick is the son of Ann and John, born in 1850.

I assume by 1861 Anne's husband John is deceased since he is not listed in the above entry.

Anyone have any advice about how I can find a 1851 entry for Ann?

Thank you in advance!  :)

5
Scotland / Re: Abernethy and Kincardine
« on: Tuesday 19 January 21 18:29 GMT (UK)  »
The united parish of Abernethy and Kincardine is mainly in Inverness-shire, but parts of it were in Morayshire until some of the boundaries were rationalised in about 1890.

See https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Inverness/Abernethy%20and%20Kinchardine

Scotland's People places all Abernethy and Kincardine parish records in Inverness-shire.

Do not confuse this Abernethy with the parish and town of Abernethy in Perthshire (part of that parish being in Fife), or this Kincardine with the similarly named parish in Ross and Cromarty, the village of Kincardine on the Forth in Perthshire, the town of Kincardine O'Neil or the County of Kincardine (Kincardineshire).

The Abernethy Highland Games are held annually at Nethy Bridge in the parish of Abernethy and Kincardine, and every year the Perth Tourist Information Centre used to field a few complaints on the following Monday from people who had gone to Abernethy for the Highland Games and failed to find them.

Thank you a lot for the help, it is especially great to see Abernethy and Kinchardine located on a map like that. :)

6
Scotland / Re: Abernethy and Kincardine
« on: Tuesday 19 January 21 18:25 GMT (UK)  »
Hello,
     There is an Abernethy village in Perthshire, but Abernethy coupled with Kincardine is more likely to be this Abernethy in Inverness-shire.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abernethy_and_Kincardine

               Regards,  Dod.

Thank you for your help. :)

7
Scotland / Re: Abernethy and Kincardine
« on: Tuesday 19 January 21 14:14 GMT (UK)  »
What timeframe?

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/Abernethy/

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Kincardineshire,_Scotland_Genealogy

Thanks for the links, looking over them now. :)

I am looking at sources with people born and married in Abernethy and Kincardine in the 1700s.

8
Scotland / Abernethy and Kincardine
« on: Tuesday 19 January 21 14:04 GMT (UK)  »
Hello. :)

Can anyone confirm for me which county Abernethy and Kincardine belonged to? I have read different sources that state it belongs in Inverness-shire, others state it belongs in Morayshire.

Thanks in advance.  :)

9
Moray (Elginshire) / Re: Gregor Grant and Margaret Martin
« on: Tuesday 05 January 21 16:37 GMT (UK)  »
Thank you both for the advice!

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