1
Aberdeenshire / Re: Any good Gordon geneological books and resources
« on: Thursday 23 February 23 09:52 GMT (UK) »
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2
Aberdeenshire / Any good Gordon geneological books and resources
« on: Thursday 23 February 23 01:12 GMT (UK) »
Hi All,
I am trying to locate any resources I can to help in tracing my Ancestry in the Aberdeen area specifically related to a Jean Gordon, dau of William Gordon baptised at Cairnie by Huntly.
Usually I find there're a few old books on similar subjects where families have published their family trees around the 1800s and looking back quite far but I'm coming up blank with this search.
Cheers for any direction,
Corey
I am trying to locate any resources I can to help in tracing my Ancestry in the Aberdeen area specifically related to a Jean Gordon, dau of William Gordon baptised at Cairnie by Huntly.
Usually I find there're a few old books on similar subjects where families have published their family trees around the 1800s and looking back quite far but I'm coming up blank with this search.
Cheers for any direction,
Corey
3
Scotland / Re: 'Wife' in 1921 Census but not married until 1923??
« on: Thursday 23 February 23 00:43 GMT (UK) »
It is something that you may've come across in other countries whereby a couple living together have the same rights as man and wife i.e. 50% split etc. Here's a bit of a brief on the way in which it worked in Scotland up until 1939.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/irregular-marriage-and-kirk-session-scotland
Cheers
Corey
Edit: in case the link breaks down the line:
"Introduction
“The law of Scotland as to marriage was this – it adopted the principle that consent alone made marriage… The law of Scotland did not require the presence of a priest, nor the intervention of any religious ceremony. The law of Scotland considered marriage to be a civil contract, but it did not provide any particular mode by which that contract was to be proved” – Hansard, discussion on bill, Registration of Births and Marriages (Scotland) Bill August 1848.
The recent release of National Records of Scotland’s (NRS) kirk session minutes on ScotlandsPeople, affords the chance to examine these forms of marriage, the impact it could have on people’s lives and how it was recorded by the Church of Scotland.
The laws of marriage were quite different in England and Scotland. In Scotland, marriage was based on the principles of mutual consent and both ‘regular’ and ‘irregular’ marriages were recognised by law. Regular marriages were those performed by the clergy after the publication of banns. There were three forms of irregular marriage in Scotland:
1. Per verba de praesenti – A present exchange of consent by words by both parties to be married, privately or informally given, to be man and wife. Ideally this exchange would be performed in front of witnesses; a marriage contract without was still legal but much more difficult to prove.
2. Per verba de futuro subsequente copula – A promise of future marriage without a present exchange of consent, ‘followed at a subsequent time by carnal intercourse’.
3. Marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute. Generally this meant a couple living together and publicly behaving as though they are man and wife. This could include being affectionate, and referring to each other as ‘husband’ and ‘wife’. Also known as a ‘common law’ marriage, this was not so much a form of marriage, but a separate type of evidence which could be used to establish that a marriage had taken place. If a couple had lived and presented themselves as married for an extended period of time, there was a presumption that there had been a previous exchange of consent.
Irregular marriages remained valid until 1939 because the Scots held to the simple doctrine that any two unmarried people of lawful age (until 1929 12 for a girl, 14 for a boy) that wished to get married, if they were physically capable and not within the prohibited degrees of kinship, ‘and they both freely expressed this wish and freely accepted each other in marriage, then they were married’ (T. C. Smout). Consent made the marriage, not the clergy nor the civil official, and there were no restrictions on where and when the marriage might take place, nor a requirement that witnesses be present to prove its validity."
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/irregular-marriage-and-kirk-session-scotland
Cheers
Corey
Edit: in case the link breaks down the line:
"Introduction
“The law of Scotland as to marriage was this – it adopted the principle that consent alone made marriage… The law of Scotland did not require the presence of a priest, nor the intervention of any religious ceremony. The law of Scotland considered marriage to be a civil contract, but it did not provide any particular mode by which that contract was to be proved” – Hansard, discussion on bill, Registration of Births and Marriages (Scotland) Bill August 1848.
The recent release of National Records of Scotland’s (NRS) kirk session minutes on ScotlandsPeople, affords the chance to examine these forms of marriage, the impact it could have on people’s lives and how it was recorded by the Church of Scotland.
The laws of marriage were quite different in England and Scotland. In Scotland, marriage was based on the principles of mutual consent and both ‘regular’ and ‘irregular’ marriages were recognised by law. Regular marriages were those performed by the clergy after the publication of banns. There were three forms of irregular marriage in Scotland:
1. Per verba de praesenti – A present exchange of consent by words by both parties to be married, privately or informally given, to be man and wife. Ideally this exchange would be performed in front of witnesses; a marriage contract without was still legal but much more difficult to prove.
2. Per verba de futuro subsequente copula – A promise of future marriage without a present exchange of consent, ‘followed at a subsequent time by carnal intercourse’.
3. Marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute. Generally this meant a couple living together and publicly behaving as though they are man and wife. This could include being affectionate, and referring to each other as ‘husband’ and ‘wife’. Also known as a ‘common law’ marriage, this was not so much a form of marriage, but a separate type of evidence which could be used to establish that a marriage had taken place. If a couple had lived and presented themselves as married for an extended period of time, there was a presumption that there had been a previous exchange of consent.
Irregular marriages remained valid until 1939 because the Scots held to the simple doctrine that any two unmarried people of lawful age (until 1929 12 for a girl, 14 for a boy) that wished to get married, if they were physically capable and not within the prohibited degrees of kinship, ‘and they both freely expressed this wish and freely accepted each other in marriage, then they were married’ (T. C. Smout). Consent made the marriage, not the clergy nor the civil official, and there were no restrictions on where and when the marriage might take place, nor a requirement that witnesses be present to prove its validity."
4
Nottinghamshire Lookup Requests / Re: Hucknall Church of St Mary Magdalene parish register - BAILEY
« on: Sunday 09 October 22 08:18 BST (UK) »
Cheers everyone, that looks like it's definitely the right couple. They're a link I was trying to make between one of my Notts branches and a DNA match. The GRO site is definitely a great resource @Carole, I've used that quite a bit for maiden name lookups and to order certificates where needed, so easy
@Nottsgirl - thats good to know before pulling the pin on getting those CD's, they fixed their website now so it apparently works however I had gotten distracted by another relative reaching out so hadn't ordered it yet
also thanks @Dizzifish for the lookup, thats fantastic work and thanks @Nottsgirl for planning to do so!
@Nottsgirl - thats good to know before pulling the pin on getting those CD's, they fixed their website now so it apparently works however I had gotten distracted by another relative reaching out so hadn't ordered it yet
also thanks @Dizzifish for the lookup, thats fantastic work and thanks @Nottsgirl for planning to do so!
5
Nottinghamshire Lookup Requests / Hucknall Church of St Mary Magdalene parish register - BAILEY
« on: Wednesday 31 August 22 04:07 BST (UK) »
Hi guys,
I'm looking to confirm or disprove whether the marriage of Sarah Bailey (c.1872-c.1912) dau of Edward Bailey and Hannah Croxall Cox to William Reynolds (c.1870-c.1937), 1892 in the Church of St Mary Magdalene, Hucknall Torkard.
The records people have indicated come from Notts FHS and the 1901 and 1911 Census records. I'm trying to purchase the BDM records Notts FHS sells on CD however having issues with their site and will be some months before it arrives in Australia even if I manage to purchase. The 1911 census listing their children seems to support this being correct as there are names shared with Sarah's siblings but that's far from concrete.
Does anyone have access to confirm whether this is the correct relationship? I'm hoping the parish records will reflect each fathers' name or Sarah's 1891 address of 10 Byron Street.
Cheers,
Corey
I'm looking to confirm or disprove whether the marriage of Sarah Bailey (c.1872-c.1912) dau of Edward Bailey and Hannah Croxall Cox to William Reynolds (c.1870-c.1937), 1892 in the Church of St Mary Magdalene, Hucknall Torkard.
The records people have indicated come from Notts FHS and the 1901 and 1911 Census records. I'm trying to purchase the BDM records Notts FHS sells on CD however having issues with their site and will be some months before it arrives in Australia even if I manage to purchase. The 1911 census listing their children seems to support this being correct as there are names shared with Sarah's siblings but that's far from concrete.
Does anyone have access to confirm whether this is the correct relationship? I'm hoping the parish records will reflect each fathers' name or Sarah's 1891 address of 10 Byron Street.
Cheers,
Corey
6
Armed Forces / Re: Joseph Alexander Croxall - Stuck for ideas on where to look next for information
« on: Saturday 26 February 22 02:35 GMT (UK) »
Ahhhh no worries then, that agrees with the 1911 record. Nah haven't found any newspaper clippings, but yeah I often find the OCR is unreliable so I might have to manually look through newspapers from the area around that that time. I did think about the possibility of India but haven't found any records around there either. There are a couple of results but none with Joseph's name, only one I found that was definitively a Croxall and that was a handwritten slip simply mentioning the death of a wife of someone who carried the Croxall surname (her first name isn't really legible to me).
7
Armed Forces / Re: Joseph Alexander Croxall - Stuck for ideas on where to look next for information
« on: Saturday 26 February 22 02:08 GMT (UK) »2. Have you located JABC in the 1921 census?If so, what is his birth year and birth place?
Looks like 1865 and "At Sea".
I noticed your update, was that on the '21 census? If so do you have a copy that you might be able to share?! I know it's on the 1911 census like that.
Anyway, I also just remembered to mention I've also been abusing the GRO lookup servers, going year by year looking for births of "Joseph Cro*" without much luck either. I've also tried doing lookups on some other british colony BDM websites where possible with no luck either.
8
Armed Forces / Re: Joseph Alexander Croxall - Stuck for ideas on where to look next for information
« on: Saturday 26 February 22 02:01 GMT (UK) »
Cheers for the response, I've seen that in some records he is listed as being born in 1855 (also possible typo in either case). I've tried looking for any records for his and similar names so far as even looking at each individual Joseph Croxall I've found and matching their marriages, death locations and births etc. That has allowed me to eliminate several people that other's have listed in their family tree but still nothing concrete.
And yup, always possible he fabricated his father's occupation, especially with a location name such as "Croxall" however I can't really work on that basis so I'm currently relying on information I've managed to confirm:
- My ancestor Harry Elliott married Mary Ann Croxall who lists JABC the miner as her father, census records used from 1911 and then 1901 to confirm. DNA testing matches me against a descendant from a parallel line - Joseph Alexander Croxall (the miner's son - third known generation of the name). This seems to confirm the census record as being correct.
- Census record for 1911 lists birth location as at sea
- Marriage of JABC the miner to Mary Ann Blower lists JABC the sailor as occupation sailor
- Marriage of JABC the miner to Ethel May Daines lists JABC the sailor as occupation Chief Mate OHMS and as deceased
- Electoral rolls confirm address listed as church street in 1918 as having JABC the miner and Mary Ann Croxall living at the same address, moving to a new address the following year, JABC the miner living at that same address until 1927 when Ethel May Croxall appears there with him (Mary Ann no longer appears after 1920 from memory).
Haven't had access to 1921 census unfortunately (out of work at the moment so doing what I can through where I can - library Ancestry access etc).
1901 census lists a birth location as Swadlincote. So varying birth locations I'm not able to confirm where he was in fact born without locating his birth records
But yeah, I'm not restricting my search to one of the spellings nor to a single decade in hopes I can find even a relative I can zero in on him by. I have seen a Joseph Croxall served in the East India Company under Lieutenant Colonel Jacob Thompson of Bath however his will (available on NA UK) is dated 1826 which is too early for one of the confirmed identities.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D197224
Cheers,
Corey
And yup, always possible he fabricated his father's occupation, especially with a location name such as "Croxall" however I can't really work on that basis so I'm currently relying on information I've managed to confirm:
- My ancestor Harry Elliott married Mary Ann Croxall who lists JABC the miner as her father, census records used from 1911 and then 1901 to confirm. DNA testing matches me against a descendant from a parallel line - Joseph Alexander Croxall (the miner's son - third known generation of the name). This seems to confirm the census record as being correct.
- Census record for 1911 lists birth location as at sea
- Marriage of JABC the miner to Mary Ann Blower lists JABC the sailor as occupation sailor
- Marriage of JABC the miner to Ethel May Daines lists JABC the sailor as occupation Chief Mate OHMS and as deceased
- Electoral rolls confirm address listed as church street in 1918 as having JABC the miner and Mary Ann Croxall living at the same address, moving to a new address the following year, JABC the miner living at that same address until 1927 when Ethel May Croxall appears there with him (Mary Ann no longer appears after 1920 from memory).
Haven't had access to 1921 census unfortunately (out of work at the moment so doing what I can through where I can - library Ancestry access etc).
1901 census lists a birth location as Swadlincote. So varying birth locations I'm not able to confirm where he was in fact born without locating his birth records
But yeah, I'm not restricting my search to one of the spellings nor to a single decade in hopes I can find even a relative I can zero in on him by. I have seen a Joseph Croxall served in the East India Company under Lieutenant Colonel Jacob Thompson of Bath however his will (available on NA UK) is dated 1826 which is too early for one of the confirmed identities.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D197224
Cheers,
Corey
9
Armed Forces / Joseph Alexander Croxall - Stuck for ideas on where to look next for information
« on: Friday 25 February 22 23:51 GMT (UK) »
Hi everyone,
I've been looking into a brick wall in the family tree where a family member appears to have served as Chief Mate aboard a british ship during the 1800s. The only information I have so far is his name and possible rank of Chief Mate taken from his son's marriage certificate in 1920 (also listing him as deceased). His name is spelt in several variations on different documents also:
Joseph Alexander Croxall
Joseph Alexander Britton Croxall
Joseph Alexander Brittham Croxall
Joseph Alexander Brittain Croxall
Croxxall
Croxhall
Croaxall
I have searched across the following sites (of course always the chance I missed something):
Ancestry
FindMyPast
MyHeritage
FamilySearch
Archive.org
Google
Google Books
RootsChat military resources thread
National Archives UK
To avoid confusion there appear to be at least 3 generations of Joseph A Croxall, the sailor, his son a miner and his grandson. His son the miner is the last one I've managed to trace but only back until 1890 where he was locked up for drunken behaviour a year prior to his first marriage. This Joseph was born around 1865 and appears may've been born "At Sea".
For ease of information, I've been updating his profile here:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GSSH-PDR
(link is to the person in question, Joseph the Chief Mate)
I'm reeeeeeeally stuck for ideas on where to go from here and really happy to hear anything anyone has to offer.
Thanks for your time everyone,
Corey
I've been looking into a brick wall in the family tree where a family member appears to have served as Chief Mate aboard a british ship during the 1800s. The only information I have so far is his name and possible rank of Chief Mate taken from his son's marriage certificate in 1920 (also listing him as deceased). His name is spelt in several variations on different documents also:
Joseph Alexander Croxall
Joseph Alexander Britton Croxall
Joseph Alexander Brittham Croxall
Joseph Alexander Brittain Croxall
Croxxall
Croxhall
Croaxall
I have searched across the following sites (of course always the chance I missed something):
Ancestry
FindMyPast
MyHeritage
FamilySearch
Archive.org
Google Books
RootsChat military resources thread
National Archives UK
To avoid confusion there appear to be at least 3 generations of Joseph A Croxall, the sailor, his son a miner and his grandson. His son the miner is the last one I've managed to trace but only back until 1890 where he was locked up for drunken behaviour a year prior to his first marriage. This Joseph was born around 1865 and appears may've been born "At Sea".
For ease of information, I've been updating his profile here:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GSSH-PDR
(link is to the person in question, Joseph the Chief Mate)
I'm reeeeeeeally stuck for ideas on where to go from here and really happy to hear anything anyone has to offer.
Thanks for your time everyone,
Corey