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Lanarkshire / Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« on: Saturday 18 November 23 01:04 GMT (UK) »
Before the SH church wasa created, they were married in the St Mary church just up the road, according to the Poor Laws entry.
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Lanarkshire / Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« on: Friday 17 November 23 17:28 GMT (UK) »
Great to see the account of Hugh's life corroborated through a range of records, even with a bit of science too!
Dating the Sacred Heart memorial is not easy. Its first inscription is 1874, which was one year after the foundation of that religious parish and within a few years of the city ordering that new burials move away from city centre graveyards. The inscription lettering style is uniform, until the original stonemason retired in 1896, but he could have performed all the inscribing in his own style over the 20+ years from 1874. The dates and names inscribed relate quite well to the corresponding death records, but imperfectly so, leading me to believe that the info was provided to the stonemason by the bereaved (many of whom were illiterate) or sodality around the time of interment, rather than by recourse to records many years later, when at least some of the bereaved also would have passed away. In addition, it seems likely that this important grave would have been marked by a memorial from the beginning, rather than as an afterthought two decades later.
But that's all speculation....
Dating the Sacred Heart memorial is not easy. Its first inscription is 1874, which was one year after the foundation of that religious parish and within a few years of the city ordering that new burials move away from city centre graveyards. The inscription lettering style is uniform, until the original stonemason retired in 1896, but he could have performed all the inscribing in his own style over the 20+ years from 1874. The dates and names inscribed relate quite well to the corresponding death records, but imperfectly so, leading me to believe that the info was provided to the stonemason by the bereaved (many of whom were illiterate) or sodality around the time of interment, rather than by recourse to records many years later, when at least some of the bereaved also would have passed away. In addition, it seems likely that this important grave would have been marked by a memorial from the beginning, rather than as an afterthought two decades later.
But that's all speculation....
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Lanarkshire / Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« on: Monday 18 September 23 10:48 BST (UK) »
PS The w3w tag is precise to about 3 metres. I tried GPS mapping on site, but the resolution was appalling, so I resorted to w3w. You can see the shadow of the memorial in the w3w image I posted.
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Lanarkshire / Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« on: Monday 18 September 23 10:41 BST (UK) »
Hi again,
The memorial was erected in the 1870s, but is surrounded by mysteries. That's why we're researching it. Hopefully much more will be revealed, and of course we'll publish it. Hugh is one of 85 people we're researching.
I didn't receive the story you mention. Did you send it to the email address I messaged?
Attached are two pictures homing in on the w3w tag I've placed on the memorial, which is the one nearest bottom of the images.
One of the problems with Dalbeth is the absence of lair mapping. During my recent visit, I encountered a selfless man who contributes grave data to FindAGrave, and even he has been able to retrieve only partial information on lair locations. To my knowledge, the McNab family lair you mention is not near the memorial in question.
The memorial was erected in the 1870s, but is surrounded by mysteries. That's why we're researching it. Hopefully much more will be revealed, and of course we'll publish it. Hugh is one of 85 people we're researching.
I didn't receive the story you mention. Did you send it to the email address I messaged?
Attached are two pictures homing in on the w3w tag I've placed on the memorial, which is the one nearest bottom of the images.
One of the problems with Dalbeth is the absence of lair mapping. During my recent visit, I encountered a selfless man who contributes grave data to FindAGrave, and even he has been able to retrieve only partial information on lair locations. To my knowledge, the McNab family lair you mention is not near the memorial in question.
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Lanarkshire / Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« on: Sunday 17 September 23 15:44 BST (UK) »
I’ve been intrigued enough by the questions over Hugh’s fate to consult the science over body decomposition in freshwater. The outcome is that it’s entirely feasible that he did enter the water in late October 1883 and reach the reported ‘considerably decomposed’ state (Glasgow Evening Times).
An international standard for determining how long a body was in water was established in the following scientific paper, which relied heavily on details of 125 bodies recovered from the River Clyde in Glasgow, with immersion periods of a few minutes (0 days) to 192 days.
Predicting the Postmortem Submersion Interval for Human Remains Recovered from U.K. Waterways. Heaton et al. Journal of Forensic Science (2010) 55: 302-307.
Let me summarise from the study.
Well established pathological states were compared with known times in the water, allowing the scientists ‘to produce a single linear regression model for predicting ADD from observed decomposition’. ADD is the Average Daily temperature for the number of Days in water - time and temperature are the main determinants of decomposition.
What I’ve deduced is that Hugh could have entered the water late in October and stayed submerged until early March - the Clyde was incredibly busy, and a floating body would have been seen very soon. His heavy clothing would have contributed to submersion. Submersion and low temperature are key factors in inhibiting decomposition. His body would have headed downstream slowly, being delayed by twice-daily upstream shifts due to the tidal behaviour of the Clyde.
I’ve applied the time and feasible temperature data of Hugh’s circumstances into the ADD model. There isn’t a database of Scottish river temperatures, but in England, river temperatures Nov-Feb inclusive (when Hugh is hypothesised to have been in the water) are 5 degrees. The number of days was 127. The output from the model is that the body would have had a pathological score of 18-19, on a scale of 1-25. Looking at the reference pathological descriptions (gruesome reading!), it is fair to say they would fit with ‘considerably decomposed’, but being well short of complete decomposition.
Overall, then, it is feasible that poor Hugh entered the water late in October.
We should bear in mind also that the memorial in Dalbeth would have been inscribed in consultation with his family, who surely would have provided the October date.
In conclusion, and bearing in mind that genealogy often evades certainty, my belief is that Hugh on the memorial indeed might well be the unfortunate Hugh whose body was found in Greenock.
An international standard for determining how long a body was in water was established in the following scientific paper, which relied heavily on details of 125 bodies recovered from the River Clyde in Glasgow, with immersion periods of a few minutes (0 days) to 192 days.
Predicting the Postmortem Submersion Interval for Human Remains Recovered from U.K. Waterways. Heaton et al. Journal of Forensic Science (2010) 55: 302-307.
Let me summarise from the study.
Well established pathological states were compared with known times in the water, allowing the scientists ‘to produce a single linear regression model for predicting ADD from observed decomposition’. ADD is the Average Daily temperature for the number of Days in water - time and temperature are the main determinants of decomposition.
What I’ve deduced is that Hugh could have entered the water late in October and stayed submerged until early March - the Clyde was incredibly busy, and a floating body would have been seen very soon. His heavy clothing would have contributed to submersion. Submersion and low temperature are key factors in inhibiting decomposition. His body would have headed downstream slowly, being delayed by twice-daily upstream shifts due to the tidal behaviour of the Clyde.
I’ve applied the time and feasible temperature data of Hugh’s circumstances into the ADD model. There isn’t a database of Scottish river temperatures, but in England, river temperatures Nov-Feb inclusive (when Hugh is hypothesised to have been in the water) are 5 degrees. The number of days was 127. The output from the model is that the body would have had a pathological score of 18-19, on a scale of 1-25. Looking at the reference pathological descriptions (gruesome reading!), it is fair to say they would fit with ‘considerably decomposed’, but being well short of complete decomposition.
Overall, then, it is feasible that poor Hugh entered the water late in October.
We should bear in mind also that the memorial in Dalbeth would have been inscribed in consultation with his family, who surely would have provided the October date.
In conclusion, and bearing in mind that genealogy often evades certainty, my belief is that Hugh on the memorial indeed might well be the unfortunate Hugh whose body was found in Greenock.
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Lanarkshire / Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« on: Thursday 14 September 23 14:28 BST (UK) »Hi,
Answering point by point:
If you look at the photos in this link, you’ll see that the first ditto refers to ‘DIED’, the second to the year of death of the preceding person, and the third to ‘AGE’.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/203102127/hugh-mcnab
It’s turning out that some of those inscribed probably are buried there (I have to get the RC people to name the lair number), but others not so, instead being associated with religious societies in the RC church.
The Dalbeth burial records are in Scotland’s People and are of good quality. The only Hugh McNab entries returned from searching are of infants. It’s unlikely he was buried in Dalbeth.
Let me describe our research. My gggrandfather was a stonemason, probably from Tyrone, whose name and address are on the base of these memorials. To study his life further, I’ve teamed up with an academic historian and we’re aiming to understand as much as possible the collective lives of those memorialised. We’ll publish our findings in an academic journal.
Those ancestors of mine suffered disease and death at a similar level as did Hugh’s family - what a dreadful time and place.
Would it be possible to have copies of the newspaper reports and the Greenock burial info? They could be valuable resource for our study.
It’s like a detective story trying to deduce poor Hugh’s last movements. I imagine his clothes (his Sunday best? Although the Oct 1883 date was a Thursday) could last in the water. If he was in the water for a long time - which seems likely as he lived in Glasgow - the real cause of death would not be ascertainable. His empty pockets - was he victim of fatally violent robbery and thrown into the river?
I hope we can shed some light on this man’s life.
Thanks
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Lanarkshire / Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« on: Wednesday 13 September 23 14:18 BST (UK) »
Here's a closeup of Hugh's part on the memorial. See also https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/203102127/hugh-mcnab
what3words has divided the planet into small squares and assigned a unique 3-word code to each. One needs the app, where the location on the map is found immediately.
what3words has divided the planet into small squares and assigned a unique 3-word code to each. One needs the app, where the location on the map is found immediately.
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Lanarkshire / Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« on: Wednesday 13 September 23 13:58 BST (UK) »
Magbill, I was hoping you'd engage, having seen prior comments! I look forward to hearing more. Have a good sleep!
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Lanarkshire / Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« on: Wednesday 13 September 23 13:56 BST (UK) »
Garngad, Not a common grave by usual definition, but perhaps directed by a church society - but to do with the poor (which includes underpaid working class and true paupers). To find, the best way is the what3words app, this memorial being at them.labs.ready.
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